Ignoring that this is a form of birth control, would you quote a woman who asked the same question the price for a hysterectomy?
The point I’m getting at is that women have a disparate amount of control over determining the outcome of the situation. In many ways that’s how it should be but the obvious follow up question is is it fair to force someone else to pay money to support a decision that you made without their consent? If you’re going to give women the option to back out of a pregnancy without input from their partner after their birth control fails then why can a man not have the same option?
I’ve never heard an actual answer to these questions aside from “men have had the power for centuries so deal with it” and sure, that’s true, but I don’t think that’s adequate justification for implementing a system that is ostensibly supposed to be more equitable than what we had before. This just seems inequitable in the opposite direction.
I like how you completely ignore the man’s options for not getting someone pregnant. Like, say masturbation, abstention, non-vaginal sex, sex with people who can’t get pregnant, vasectomy, and condoms. But somehow it’s all the woman’s problem, isn’t it?
Isn’t that the same logic anti-abortion activists use to argue against a woman’s right to choose? She should have kept her legs closed, birth control exists, abstinence, etc. It’s pretty odd to me that you don’t see the hypocrisy in that.
Because you’re missing “bodily autonomy.” The woman has bodily autonomy over her body. Whether she has a baby, an abortion, takes birth control, has sex, etc. It’s not hypocritical at all if you innately understand and respect bodily autonomy. Do you get where the boundary of her body starts and yours ends?
A boundary is a limit you place on yourself - eg wearing birth control like a condom, or performing sex acts that won’t lead to pregnancy. Being a controlling dickwad is when you start dictating to others what their boundaries and responses should be. In this way, you can see how men are indeed responsible for their actions and for paying child support.
And before you bring up abortion again - the fetus by definition isn’t autonomous. It’s surviving off the mother.
If a woman chooses to keep a child that a man does not want and demands a portion of his income to support that choice, how is that not “being a controlling dickwad… dictating to others what their boundaries and responses should be” as you so graciously phrased it?
Well, that’s part of a larger historical issue involving heteropatriarchy and police state issues. Idk that Lemmy has enough space for this nuance. And idk if you are asking for my personal philosophical position, or genuinely curious why current law demands child support from men under this. Please elaborate so I don’t waste my time typing out a complicated answer.
Money isn’t your body btw. That you think it’s equivalent to dictating child birth is kinda funny. Your money isn’t a limb, or a uterus, or blood. The bodily autonomy argument stands.
We already force restitution via money for other conflicts in our current government. If you are critical of this entire system, that’s a different discussion.
I don’t think money is the same thing as your body and I never said that. I said you’re making contradictory statements about the nature of choice. On one hand you’re arguing that women should get to make their own choices about the level of involvement they have with their child because becoming a parent is their choice to make and no one else’s, which yes we’re on the same page there. On the other hand you’re saying that men don’t get to decide whether or not they want to become a parent because they have to support whatever decision women make. That is obviously not equitable. You are simultaneously arguing for and against the right to choose not to be a parent and all that comes with that decision.
It doesn’t make sense to allow one person to both make a decision for someone else and force that person to be financially responsible for the choice that they had no part in. If a woman chooses to keep the child she should be choosing to accept the financial consequences of that decision as well. Anything less is based on the idea that abortion is not available as an option which entitles women to financial support to continue on a path that can no longer be changed. Abortion provides an alternative which, when waived, should remove that entitlement.
It must be nice to live in a world where rape and coercion don’t exist, where every pregnancy is carried to term without endangering the life of the mother, and where every child is born entirely healthy. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to live in reality, not your pleasing little fantasy world.
That’s a very convenient exit ramp from introspection you’ve created for yourself. Unfortunately it’s not even internally consistent logic, much less a convincing counterpoint.
Aside from birth control, abortion and adoption are the options available to moms. What is dad’s option?
About USD $153.71 for a vasectomy without insurance.
Can I get a source one that price? I ask cause mine cost $300 with insurance (still worth it).
Mine was $700 + the $10 Jack off into a cup taste test for the doctor.
Ignoring that this is a form of birth control, would you quote a woman who asked the same question the price for a hysterectomy?
The point I’m getting at is that women have a disparate amount of control over determining the outcome of the situation. In many ways that’s how it should be but the obvious follow up question is is it fair to force someone else to pay money to support a decision that you made without their consent? If you’re going to give women the option to back out of a pregnancy without input from their partner after their birth control fails then why can a man not have the same option?
I’ve never heard an actual answer to these questions aside from “men have had the power for centuries so deal with it” and sure, that’s true, but I don’t think that’s adequate justification for implementing a system that is ostensibly supposed to be more equitable than what we had before. This just seems inequitable in the opposite direction.
A hysterectomy is no where equivalent in terms of surgery itself or fertility later.
I like how you completely ignore the man’s options for not getting someone pregnant. Like, say masturbation, abstention, non-vaginal sex, sex with people who can’t get pregnant, vasectomy, and condoms. But somehow it’s all the woman’s problem, isn’t it?
Isn’t that the same logic anti-abortion activists use to argue against a woman’s right to choose? She should have kept her legs closed, birth control exists, abstinence, etc. It’s pretty odd to me that you don’t see the hypocrisy in that.
Because you’re missing “bodily autonomy.” The woman has bodily autonomy over her body. Whether she has a baby, an abortion, takes birth control, has sex, etc. It’s not hypocritical at all if you innately understand and respect bodily autonomy. Do you get where the boundary of her body starts and yours ends?
A boundary is a limit you place on yourself - eg wearing birth control like a condom, or performing sex acts that won’t lead to pregnancy. Being a controlling dickwad is when you start dictating to others what their boundaries and responses should be. In this way, you can see how men are indeed responsible for their actions and for paying child support.
And before you bring up abortion again - the fetus by definition isn’t autonomous. It’s surviving off the mother.
If a woman chooses to keep a child that a man does not want and demands a portion of his income to support that choice, how is that not “being a controlling dickwad… dictating to others what their boundaries and responses should be” as you so graciously phrased it?
Well, that’s part of a larger historical issue involving heteropatriarchy and police state issues. Idk that Lemmy has enough space for this nuance. And idk if you are asking for my personal philosophical position, or genuinely curious why current law demands child support from men under this. Please elaborate so I don’t waste my time typing out a complicated answer.
Money isn’t your body btw. That you think it’s equivalent to dictating child birth is kinda funny. Your money isn’t a limb, or a uterus, or blood. The bodily autonomy argument stands.
We already force restitution via money for other conflicts in our current government. If you are critical of this entire system, that’s a different discussion.
I don’t think money is the same thing as your body and I never said that. I said you’re making contradictory statements about the nature of choice. On one hand you’re arguing that women should get to make their own choices about the level of involvement they have with their child because becoming a parent is their choice to make and no one else’s, which yes we’re on the same page there. On the other hand you’re saying that men don’t get to decide whether or not they want to become a parent because they have to support whatever decision women make. That is obviously not equitable. You are simultaneously arguing for and against the right to choose not to be a parent and all that comes with that decision.
It doesn’t make sense to allow one person to both make a decision for someone else and force that person to be financially responsible for the choice that they had no part in. If a woman chooses to keep the child she should be choosing to accept the financial consequences of that decision as well. Anything less is based on the idea that abortion is not available as an option which entitles women to financial support to continue on a path that can no longer be changed. Abortion provides an alternative which, when waived, should remove that entitlement.
It must be nice to live in a world where rape and coercion don’t exist, where every pregnancy is carried to term without endangering the life of the mother, and where every child is born entirely healthy. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to live in reality, not your pleasing little fantasy world.
That’s a very convenient exit ramp from introspection you’ve created for yourself. Unfortunately it’s not even internally consistent logic, much less a convincing counterpoint.
Ever heard of a condom?
There’s also anal. Oral. Masturbating together. Going on Omegle and earning some crack money.
So. Many. Options.