We put them there to draw aggro for all the messed up things we do in the region so we can steal their oil.
They’ve been doing that for 60 years. Every rocket, every terrorist attack they took in that timeframe should have been ours to take. We engineered the whole thing.
We got all the benefit, while they took all the losses.
You want to blame them for being racist to the people trying to kill them every day? When we, as Americans are pretty much the entire reason it’s happening?
Have you seen pictures of Iran in the 70s?
We did this. All of it. We don’t get to wash our hands and pretend this isn’t all on us.
What did Mexico do to us? Guatamala? We overthrow governments for fruit companies on this side of the pond. The idea of US taking the moral high ground on a situation we created is insane.
If you actually want the moral high ground, know what we should be doing? Campaign to bring the 2 million Palestinians HERE. You think people living in Gaza right now wouldn’t immediately accept an offer to come live in America? And they’d acclimate to secular society a lot faster here than they ever would living in Gaza which has been blown to bits already.
Sure, we’d have all the problems that we were so eager to inflict on the Israelis. We’ll get bombed, people will die, and we’ll probably finally get our share of the terrorist attacks Israel and Europe have been dealing with for decades. But unlike them, we’d actually deserve it. Last I checked, OPEC isn’t selling oil in Euros.
Let Israel have the whole thing, and lets see if that changes a damn thing. It’s the LEAST we could do after using them as cannon fodder for the past 60 years. And these performative leftists will actually learn WHY Jordan and Egypt refuse to accept Palestinian refugees. (Hint: It’s called assassinations and coup attempts)
You’re just making complete straw man arguments right now because I never defended the US once in my statement. I said Israel is running an apartheid state and maybe Hamas wouldn’t be an issue if they weren’t.
Yes the US is distinctly involved in Israel and the repression and genocide of the Palestinian people, and has been since 1948. However, that does not take away any blame from the Israelis being a violent apartheid state committing a genocide. And yes, I absolutely do blame them for being racist because Israel was the one who has created the conditions for this and every previous war in the region.
It is absolutely not unreasonable for people who were living in that land and were dispossessed of their land through no fault of their own, who are currently still being dispossessed of their land, and who are living in an apartheid, as they have been since Israels formation, to fight back against their oppressors.
By that logic the native Americans should never have fought against the colonialists and the Indians should never have fought back and killed any British. More recently by your logic Ukraine should not have fought back against Russia.
You have a right and an obligation to fight an invading power.
And we committed genocide against the Native Americans and put the few that were left in barren strips of land no one wanted to fend for themselves.
Fine, let’s give them back everything first.
Then demand others do the same. To this day we impose more rules on the Native Americans than Israel does to Palestine.
We should pray that Israel doesn’t do to Palestine what we did to the Native Americans because there would be about 500 of them left, and they’d be stuffed into a piece of land the size of a Walmart parking lot.
And yet… despite the absolutely horrific shit we inflicted on the Native Americans… if your local tribe started kidnapping Americans and beheading them do you think anyone will care why?
You don’t see the irony in this?
I’m not saying the Palestinians aren’t justified in trying to take back their lands. I’m saying the Israelis are there because WE carved out that piece of land and told them they could go there. I’m saying WE decided to destabilize the entire region and sowed division so we could steal their oil afterwards. And WE directed the resulting (entirely justified) resentment towards Israel, using them as a convenient scapegoat to take the target off of our own backs.
We do not have the moral high ground here, and pearl clutching about the Israelis being racist towards people who are trying to kill them (because of us) and trying to say we should cut off all military aid and leave them to die is a morally abhorrent position to take for someone who lived their whole life steeped in the wealth that we extracted from their blood.
Because if that’s your solution for Israel, applying that same standard to us would mean we’d have to collectively commit mass suicide first. We’ve done a lot worse for a lot less.
Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t be throwing stones. Our house isn’t even glass. It’s made out of single sheets of phyllo dough.
And the scary thing is, we weren’t even the worst of the lot. Look at what world dominating empires have done historically and most of them were so, so much worse than us. Hell, look what China and Russia is doing NOW. As horrible as we were/are, just about everyone else who attained this level of power has done worse.
There is no way to atone for everything we did. But even if you wanted to start, letting 20 million people die in a death-trap we created because it’s no longer convenient for us to maintain it is certainly not the way to start things.
Zionism is a settler colonialism project was able to start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe. Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources. That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Ending the current genocide means stopping military support for that genocide. The only way for everyone to live peacefully is a secular One State with equal rights and Right of Return for all Palestinians and Israelis
Make your own arguments instead of copy pasting things. It’s lazy, and you haven’t addressed any of my arguments.
If you care enough about the issue to have a discussion about it, at least use your own words and arguments that show you at least thought about the issues at hand.
I laid out my argument for why we can’t unilaterally cut support to Israel clearly and repeatedly. Least you can do is attempt the same if you want to convince anyone.
Not without major public pressure on the Democratic administration. That doesn’t change the fact that it is the correct stance both morally and even politically in terms of receiving major support from hundreds of thousands of voters in swing states.
We put them there to draw aggro for all the messed up things we do in the region so we can steal their oil.
They’ve been doing that for 60 years. Every rocket, every terrorist attack they took in that timeframe should have been ours to take. We engineered the whole thing.
We got all the benefit, while they took all the losses. You want to blame them for being racist to the people trying to kill them every day? When we, as Americans are pretty much the entire reason it’s happening?
Have you seen pictures of Iran in the 70s?
We did this. All of it. We don’t get to wash our hands and pretend this isn’t all on us.
What did Mexico do to us? Guatamala? We overthrow governments for fruit companies on this side of the pond. The idea of US taking the moral high ground on a situation we created is insane.
If you actually want the moral high ground, know what we should be doing? Campaign to bring the 2 million Palestinians HERE. You think people living in Gaza right now wouldn’t immediately accept an offer to come live in America? And they’d acclimate to secular society a lot faster here than they ever would living in Gaza which has been blown to bits already.
Sure, we’d have all the problems that we were so eager to inflict on the Israelis. We’ll get bombed, people will die, and we’ll probably finally get our share of the terrorist attacks Israel and Europe have been dealing with for decades. But unlike them, we’d actually deserve it. Last I checked, OPEC isn’t selling oil in Euros.
Let Israel have the whole thing, and lets see if that changes a damn thing. It’s the LEAST we could do after using them as cannon fodder for the past 60 years. And these performative leftists will actually learn WHY Jordan and Egypt refuse to accept Palestinian refugees. (Hint: It’s called assassinations and coup attempts)
You’re just making complete straw man arguments right now because I never defended the US once in my statement. I said Israel is running an apartheid state and maybe Hamas wouldn’t be an issue if they weren’t.
Yes the US is distinctly involved in Israel and the repression and genocide of the Palestinian people, and has been since 1948. However, that does not take away any blame from the Israelis being a violent apartheid state committing a genocide. And yes, I absolutely do blame them for being racist because Israel was the one who has created the conditions for this and every previous war in the region.
It is absolutely not unreasonable for people who were living in that land and were dispossessed of their land through no fault of their own, who are currently still being dispossessed of their land, and who are living in an apartheid, as they have been since Israels formation, to fight back against their oppressors.
By that logic the native Americans should never have fought against the colonialists and the Indians should never have fought back and killed any British. More recently by your logic Ukraine should not have fought back against Russia.
You have a right and an obligation to fight an invading power.
And we committed genocide against the Native Americans and put the few that were left in barren strips of land no one wanted to fend for themselves.
Fine, let’s give them back everything first. Then demand others do the same. To this day we impose more rules on the Native Americans than Israel does to Palestine.
We should pray that Israel doesn’t do to Palestine what we did to the Native Americans because there would be about 500 of them left, and they’d be stuffed into a piece of land the size of a Walmart parking lot.
And yet… despite the absolutely horrific shit we inflicted on the Native Americans… if your local tribe started kidnapping Americans and beheading them do you think anyone will care why?
You don’t see the irony in this?
I’m not saying the Palestinians aren’t justified in trying to take back their lands. I’m saying the Israelis are there because WE carved out that piece of land and told them they could go there. I’m saying WE decided to destabilize the entire region and sowed division so we could steal their oil afterwards. And WE directed the resulting (entirely justified) resentment towards Israel, using them as a convenient scapegoat to take the target off of our own backs.
We do not have the moral high ground here, and pearl clutching about the Israelis being racist towards people who are trying to kill them (because of us) and trying to say we should cut off all military aid and leave them to die is a morally abhorrent position to take for someone who lived their whole life steeped in the wealth that we extracted from their blood.
Because if that’s your solution for Israel, applying that same standard to us would mean we’d have to collectively commit mass suicide first. We’ve done a lot worse for a lot less.
Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t be throwing stones. Our house isn’t even glass. It’s made out of single sheets of phyllo dough.
And the scary thing is, we weren’t even the worst of the lot. Look at what world dominating empires have done historically and most of them were so, so much worse than us. Hell, look what China and Russia is doing NOW. As horrible as we were/are, just about everyone else who attained this level of power has done worse.
There is no way to atone for everything we did. But even if you wanted to start, letting 20 million people die in a death-trap we created because it’s no longer convenient for us to maintain it is certainly not the way to start things.
Zionism is a settler colonialism project was able to start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe. Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources. That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
10 myths of Israel by Ilan Pappe, summerized and full book
Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
Ending the current genocide means stopping military support for that genocide. The only way for everyone to live peacefully is a secular One State with equal rights and Right of Return for all Palestinians and Israelis
Make your own arguments instead of copy pasting things. It’s lazy, and you haven’t addressed any of my arguments.
If you care enough about the issue to have a discussion about it, at least use your own words and arguments that show you at least thought about the issues at hand.
I laid out my argument for why we can’t unilaterally cut support to Israel clearly and repeatedly. Least you can do is attempt the same if you want to convince anyone.
Those are my words. I just provided sources to back it up
And that’s why you completely sidestepped my assertion that we’d never do what you’re asking of Israel right now?
Not without major public pressure on the Democratic administration. That doesn’t change the fact that it is the correct stance both morally and even politically in terms of receiving major support from hundreds of thousands of voters in swing states.