You know, when you accuse every anti-war candidate of being a Russian agent, you’re just making Russia look better than the US.
It’s not about a supposed “anti-war” stance at all, and you trying to shift the conversation to that just makes you look like you don’t want discussions about the fact Russia has been working to destabilize US politics for decades.
You *do *realize Russian interference in US politics has been happening since way before any of this right? Way before even their invasion of Georgia 16 years ago. This isn’t new, and it isn’t about Ukraine or Israel. It’s about recognizing that Russia has been spreading misinformation in the US through things like social media and even our own politicians for decades now. The US military and intelligence communities have been warning about it for just as long, it isn’t new. The fact you want to make it seem like this is somehow new means you either haven’t been paying any attention, or that you support Russian interests.
Given your attempt to shift the conversation away from Russian interference, I’d say the second is correct.
If they hadn’t supported it, it would not have gone anywhere as the Google searches showed the general public in the UK neither knew or cared what the EU or Brexit actually were.
Read the report made by the British government, it absolutely is true that Russia, specifically Vladimir Putin, has been intent on destabilizing the west for decades now.
But it’s clear you don’t care about the truth, you care about pushing Russian talking points, so we’re done here.
Russia has been working to destabilize US politics for decades.
Yeah, probably. Just like the USA tries to influence the population of foreign countries through efforts like Voice of America and Radio Free Asia.
But I think you’re vastly overestimating how much effect Russian propaganda has. If anything is destabilizing democracy, it’s Fox News (which has a reach hundreds of times greater than any Russia bot on Twitter). How can you worry about foreign disinformation when domestic disinformation is right in front of you and radicalizing your parents (and weird cousins).
The only reason we hear so much about Russian disinformation is because the Democrats need a boogeyman to blame their failures on. (Who haven’t the Democrats accused of being Russian agents at this point?)
A McDonalds employees named Bob tweeting something, and then Alice agreeing with it does not make Alice a McDonalds agent. It means she agreed with what Bob tweeted, even if he was being subversive/malicious
No, it’s not really required to agree with every single thing the majority agrees with. You will get the accusation if you push the same things the Russians push though, which is not that hard to check. And they have definitely pushed for Jill Stein before, quite a bit.
Now, I personally just think he’s an old school troll with a particular agenda, but that’s just me. lmao
Wow. How do you write out all of that about the importance of not giving way to even the slightest bit of fascism and then defend a president who is FUNDING A GENOCIDE.
The “shitty crustpunk bar” is called the Democrat party and it’s already been taken over by genociders and you are perfectly fine with still drinking there.
You seem to think that everything is black and white. Nothing is, it’s all shades of grey. No politician is perfect, No party is perfect. Nothing changes overnight, especially with foreign policy.
The US political two party system is bullshit, but it is what we have to deal with currently. Both of these parties support Israel historically, regardless of whatever propaganda anyone is trying to spin about the current genocide. US foreign policy has backed Israel since it was created, that isn’t going to change overnight. Us foreign policy has also funded and supplied weaponry to many groups we later list as terrorist organizations that target the US. It’s almost like this shit is complicated even if the morality of the situation isn’t.
Your point about genocide is valid, and the current Zionist government in Israel has clearly gone way too far. However, your comments clearly assume everyone here supports that, which obviously isn’t true, and you’re intentionally misrepresenting everyone else in this thread. That’s why you’re getting all this negativity. You’re intentionally turning all of these into strawman arguments and backing those up with other various logical fallacies to try and support your intentionally flawed strawman argument.
Because your concerns are meaningless and without merit, and repetitive, we’ve decided we’ve had enough of you and are calling you out on your bullshit. We’re also keying on your sea-lioning tendencies, and just refusing to play your stupid game politely.
We’d like not to play your stupid game at all, but we know how this works. You peel off someone who isn’t paying attention, getting them to vote third party or stay home on false accusations that Democrats are Russophobic, making it more likely that the Shitgibbon can steal the Election in November. Thus we have to address your bullshit and make it clear that Gabbard, Stein, and Trump DO have pro-Russian policies at a minimum, if not full on Russian ties, and that we’re not red-scaring here, but pointing out that an honest to goodness Russian Autocracy lead by a Strong-Man Dictator every bit as bad as what Trump wants to be here, is pulling strings behind the scenes and inflaming already existing (and in the case of Anti-Vax, outright made up ‘Moon Landing Faked/Earth is Flat’ levels of bullshit fake) divisions in the country to ensure the Autocrat Trump gets into office and tears down civil rights like Putin is doing in Russia.
And I think the entire … what does Lemmy call their equivalent of a subreddit anyway … community is doing a good job of exposing your bullshit.
You know, insulting me doesn’t make your argument more persuasive.
Yeah, based on your commentary all over the place here, I’m thinking that wasn’t the real reason. That’s just the reason you chose to latch onto instead of facing the possibility that your opinions may actually be unpopular and/or misguided. That you’re the one with the weird, misguided ideals, and not everyone else you interact with.
So you’re calling me a sealion because, after dozens of messages insulting me, I pointed out that I didn’t deserve to be thus abused.
And you think my politeness is some kind of manipulation instead of, oh I dunno, maybe I just don’t think getting angry helps improve the quality of discourse on the internet, and also I’m mindful of the fact that this sub has rules on civility (which no one else seems to be following, but which I’m aware could get me banned by a mod if they were looking for an excuse, as often happened on reddit).
What is wrong with you? It hasn’t even crossed your mind for a second that I might be a real person expressing my real thoughts, has it?
It hasn’t even crossed your mind for a second that I might be a real person expressing my real thoughts, has it?
It has! And I evaluated that thought for lots more than a single second and came to the following pair of conclusions.
Either you’re being disingenuous here and are everything I am accusing you of being…
Or you honestly hold these beliefs, making you a useful idiot and enabling those people who are what I accuse you of being.
I’ve given up assuming incompetence where there could be malice, so I’m just going straight to accusing you of being disingenuous. And I’m not the only one…that should tell you something.
So, like all of your other concerns, I’m dismissing this one.
And I evaluated that thought for lots more than a single second and came to the following pair of conclusions.
Either you’re being disingenuous here and are everything I am accusing you of being…
Or you honestly hold these beliefs, making you a useful idiot and enabling those people who are what I accuse you of being.
I’ve given up assuming incompetence where there could be malice, so I’m just going straight to accusing you of being disingenuous. And I’m not the only one…that should tell you something.
This is the exact same conclusion I’ve come to after all decades online now, sifting through propaganda and misinformation on social media and spread by “official” media sources owned by billionaires and spreading the agenda that benefits their owner. It doesn’t matter whether the user is part of a propaganda mill, or just a useful idiot, the end result is the same and so they deserve the same treatment.
If they don’t want to be treated like a foreign agent, then they should take some time to reflect on their beliefs. See if they accidentally fell into a rabbit hole of propaganda, it happens all the time. It’s the reason there is so much discord between us now, and no willingness to work together. Do real, verifiable facts actually back up their points, or are those points based what they were told to think and based solely on emotion, like fear. Did they consciously make decisions to end up with those beliefs, or did they take a couple of similar sources and internalize that. Since their beliefs match those of a foreign agent trying to sow as much discord as possible, were those sources compromised or being co-opted by that foreign power?
The Overton Window in the US has shifted so far to the right over the past few decades that we no longer actually have a left wing party. The current Democratic party is more similar to Reagan’s Republican party than anything resembling left wing. Reagan, as much as the Republicans lift him up, would never even get through a primary in the current Republican party. The only things even pretending to be left wing anymore are a handful of social issues, that are obvious to most other countries in the world, and have been implemented for decades already successfully. As much as the Republicans try to pain the Democrats as radicals, there is absolutely no factual basis for this beyond their skewed perception of reality. There are a couple politicians that are further left than the party, but nothing coming from any US politician is remotely radical, most of what they’re calling for has been done in Europe for decades with few issues compared to our lopsided society of embarrassed millionaires who will never get close to making the money they fantasize they will have.
All three links try to answer the painful question of: “How do American voters line up on ideologies?” Gallop finds that America as a whole identifies more Conservative (36%) than Liberal (24%), with another whole 36% saying they are neither Liberal NOR Conservative. The Other Side is divided up into 20% Very Conservative, 49% Conservative, 27% Moderate, and a tiny sliver of Liberal or Very Liberal Republicans (that surprises me all by itself! Where do they find these people?!). We here on the Left count 16% as Very Liberal, 31% as Liberal, and a whopping 45% as Moderate (and another 5% as Conservatives, but we know we have those). Unfortunately, we have to deal with the fact that we live in a country where 7 out of every 20 people say they are neither Left NOR Right and view both parties from a ‘pox on both’ perspective. At least they’re moving to our side because Fascism Bad, amirite? :)
Gallop points out that even as people become more self-identified as liberal on social issues (33% Liberal, 32% Moderate, 32% Conservative), they remain very moderate to conservative on economic issues (23% Liberal, 35% Moderate, 39% Conservative). That’s why Liberals have to focus on social issues because economic issues don’t favour them. 69% of voters in the Democratic Party agree on liberal approaches to social issues, while only 49% favour a conservative approach.
But above all, the most interesting one is the YouGov poll. When people were asked about how their politics was described, 21% said “Moderate” described them well, and another 33% said it described them partially. Conservative got 28% and 25% on the same areas. Progressive only scored 18% and 24% in those areas, and Liberal scored 16% and 24%. Socialist? 7+21%. Left Wing? 11+16%. But they went further. They asked which terms used to describe the respondants, and which terms never described them. Socialist and Left-Wing shared a stat line on that response – 51% of people said these terms NEVER described them, while another 6% said the terms used to describe them. Only Radical (64%) and Anarchist (67%) scored harder on the 'I have never been this).
I’m not sure I agree with the notion that today’s Democrats are Reagan’s Republicans, but as long as you keep in mind that you live in a country that over half of people polled vehemently disagreed with being labelled socialist or left-wing, and tailor your solutions to account for that, while trying to do the best to represent Progressive or Liberal goals, I won’t complain hard about whether or not 2024 Dems would be at home in the 1980 RNC.
It’s not about a supposed “anti-war” stance at all, and you trying to shift the conversation to that just makes you look like you don’t want discussions about the fact Russia has been working to destabilize US politics for decades.
You *do *realize Russian interference in US politics has been happening since way before any of this right? Way before even their invasion of Georgia 16 years ago. This isn’t new, and it isn’t about Ukraine or Israel. It’s about recognizing that Russia has been spreading misinformation in the US through things like social media and even our own politicians for decades now. The US military and intelligence communities have been warning about it for just as long, it isn’t new. The fact you want to make it seem like this is somehow new means you either haven’t been paying any attention, or that you support Russian interests.
Given your attempt to shift the conversation away from Russian interference, I’d say the second is correct.
It’s not just the US. It’s “The West” as a whole.
There’s good evidence that Russia was behind the pro-Brexit sentiment in the UK as well.
https://www.csis.org/blogs/brexit-bits-bobs-and-blogs/did-russia-influence-brexit
Supported by the top UK Google searches immediately following the vote:
https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/06/24/480949383/britains-google-searches-for-what-is-the-eu-spike-after-brexit-vote
“What is the EU?”
“What is Brexit?”
You mean that Russia supported pro-Brexit sentiment, right?
You’re not saying Russia was the source of pro-Brexit sentiment, are you?
If they hadn’t supported it, it would not have gone anywhere as the Google searches showed the general public in the UK neither knew or cared what the EU or Brexit actually were.
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Read the report made by the British government, it absolutely is true that Russia, specifically Vladimir Putin, has been intent on destabilizing the west for decades now.
But it’s clear you don’t care about the truth, you care about pushing Russian talking points, so we’re done here.
Yeah, probably. Just like the USA tries to influence the population of foreign countries through efforts like Voice of America and Radio Free Asia.
But I think you’re vastly overestimating how much effect Russian propaganda has. If anything is destabilizing democracy, it’s Fox News (which has a reach hundreds of times greater than any Russia bot on Twitter). How can you worry about foreign disinformation when domestic disinformation is right in front of you and radicalizing your parents (and weird cousins).
The only reason we hear so much about Russian disinformation is because the Democrats need a boogeyman to blame their failures on. (Who haven’t the Democrats accused of being Russian agents at this point?)
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Unfortunately this is why Russian propaganda works. Some people just aren’t all that bright and cannot grasp the game being played.
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A McDonalds employees named Bob tweeting something, and then Alice agreeing with it does not make Alice a McDonalds agent. It means she agreed with what Bob tweeted, even if he was being subversive/malicious
Well, here on Lemmy, unless you agree with every single thing the majority here agrees with, you’re a russian asset. I’m accused of it daily! lmao
No, it’s not really required to agree with every single thing the majority agrees with. You will get the accusation if you push the same things the Russians push though, which is not that hard to check. And they have definitely pushed for Jill Stein before, quite a bit.
Now, I personally just think he’s an old school troll with a particular agenda, but that’s just me. lmao
You know, insulting me doesn’t make your argument more persuasive.
I haven’t insulted you or anyone in this thread. But I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve been insulted. Why are you all being abusive?
Do you think your behaviour is any better than the MAGA people?
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Wow. How do you write out all of that about the importance of not giving way to even the slightest bit of fascism and then defend a president who is FUNDING A GENOCIDE.
The “shitty crustpunk bar” is called the Democrat party and it’s already been taken over by genociders and you are perfectly fine with still drinking there.
Byeeeeeee
Sorry if I upset you. Maybe you can make yourself feel better by killing another Palestinian child.
You seem to think that everything is black and white. Nothing is, it’s all shades of grey. No politician is perfect, No party is perfect. Nothing changes overnight, especially with foreign policy.
The US political two party system is bullshit, but it is what we have to deal with currently. Both of these parties support Israel historically, regardless of whatever propaganda anyone is trying to spin about the current genocide. US foreign policy has backed Israel since it was created, that isn’t going to change overnight. Us foreign policy has also funded and supplied weaponry to many groups we later list as terrorist organizations that target the US. It’s almost like this shit is complicated even if the morality of the situation isn’t.
Your point about genocide is valid, and the current Zionist government in Israel has clearly gone way too far. However, your comments clearly assume everyone here supports that, which obviously isn’t true, and you’re intentionally misrepresenting everyone else in this thread. That’s why you’re getting all this negativity. You’re intentionally turning all of these into strawman arguments and backing those up with other various logical fallacies to try and support your intentionally flawed strawman argument.
Because your concerns are meaningless and without merit, and repetitive, we’ve decided we’ve had enough of you and are calling you out on your bullshit. We’re also keying on your sea-lioning tendencies, and just refusing to play your stupid game politely.
We’d like not to play your stupid game at all, but we know how this works. You peel off someone who isn’t paying attention, getting them to vote third party or stay home on false accusations that Democrats are Russophobic, making it more likely that the Shitgibbon can steal the Election in November. Thus we have to address your bullshit and make it clear that Gabbard, Stein, and Trump DO have pro-Russian policies at a minimum, if not full on Russian ties, and that we’re not red-scaring here, but pointing out that an honest to goodness Russian Autocracy lead by a Strong-Man Dictator every bit as bad as what Trump wants to be here, is pulling strings behind the scenes and inflaming already existing (and in the case of Anti-Vax, outright made up ‘Moon Landing Faked/Earth is Flat’ levels of bullshit fake) divisions in the country to ensure the Autocrat Trump gets into office and tears down civil rights like Putin is doing in Russia.
And I think the entire … what does Lemmy call their equivalent of a subreddit anyway … community is doing a good job of exposing your bullshit.
Believe me, I want to call you a dick, but the last time I called someone a dick, I got banned from reddit.
Yeah, based on your commentary all over the place here, I’m thinking that wasn’t the real reason. That’s just the reason you chose to latch onto instead of facing the possibility that your opinions may actually be unpopular and/or misguided. That you’re the one with the weird, misguided ideals, and not everyone else you interact with.
If you meet dicks everywhere you post maybe you should reflect a bit on why that might be. Just a suggestion.
Isn’t that the truth…
I can take a few bad words from you, ‘mate’. If the mods ban you, that might just tell you something, though!
Lol. So you’re Australian.
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So you’re calling me a sealion because, after dozens of messages insulting me, I pointed out that I didn’t deserve to be thus abused.
And you think my politeness is some kind of manipulation instead of, oh I dunno, maybe I just don’t think getting angry helps improve the quality of discourse on the internet, and also I’m mindful of the fact that this sub has rules on civility (which no one else seems to be following, but which I’m aware could get me banned by a mod if they were looking for an excuse, as often happened on reddit).
What is wrong with you? It hasn’t even crossed your mind for a second that I might be a real person expressing my real thoughts, has it?
It has! And I evaluated that thought for lots more than a single second and came to the following pair of conclusions.
I’ve given up assuming incompetence where there could be malice, so I’m just going straight to accusing you of being disingenuous. And I’m not the only one…that should tell you something.
So, like all of your other concerns, I’m dismissing this one.
This is the exact same conclusion I’ve come to after all decades online now, sifting through propaganda and misinformation on social media and spread by “official” media sources owned by billionaires and spreading the agenda that benefits their owner. It doesn’t matter whether the user is part of a propaganda mill, or just a useful idiot, the end result is the same and so they deserve the same treatment.
If they don’t want to be treated like a foreign agent, then they should take some time to reflect on their beliefs. See if they accidentally fell into a rabbit hole of propaganda, it happens all the time. It’s the reason there is so much discord between us now, and no willingness to work together. Do real, verifiable facts actually back up their points, or are those points based what they were told to think and based solely on emotion, like fear. Did they consciously make decisions to end up with those beliefs, or did they take a couple of similar sources and internalize that. Since their beliefs match those of a foreign agent trying to sow as much discord as possible, were those sources compromised or being co-opted by that foreign power?
The Overton Window in the US has shifted so far to the right over the past few decades that we no longer actually have a left wing party. The current Democratic party is more similar to Reagan’s Republican party than anything resembling left wing. Reagan, as much as the Republicans lift him up, would never even get through a primary in the current Republican party. The only things even pretending to be left wing anymore are a handful of social issues, that are obvious to most other countries in the world, and have been implemented for decades already successfully. As much as the Republicans try to pain the Democrats as radicals, there is absolutely no factual basis for this beyond their skewed perception of reality. There are a couple politicians that are further left than the party, but nothing coming from any US politician is remotely radical, most of what they’re calling for has been done in Europe for decades with few issues compared to our lopsided society of embarrassed millionaires who will never get close to making the money they fantasize they will have.
There’s definitely a political direction in the US, something hard-leftists don’t get. Here’s a set of fun polls:
All three links try to answer the painful question of: “How do American voters line up on ideologies?” Gallop finds that America as a whole identifies more Conservative (36%) than Liberal (24%), with another whole 36% saying they are neither Liberal NOR Conservative. The Other Side is divided up into 20% Very Conservative, 49% Conservative, 27% Moderate, and a tiny sliver of Liberal or Very Liberal Republicans (that surprises me all by itself! Where do they find these people?!). We here on the Left count 16% as Very Liberal, 31% as Liberal, and a whopping 45% as Moderate (and another 5% as Conservatives, but we know we have those). Unfortunately, we have to deal with the fact that we live in a country where 7 out of every 20 people say they are neither Left NOR Right and view both parties from a ‘pox on both’ perspective. At least they’re moving to our side because Fascism Bad, amirite? :)
Gallop points out that even as people become more self-identified as liberal on social issues (33% Liberal, 32% Moderate, 32% Conservative), they remain very moderate to conservative on economic issues (23% Liberal, 35% Moderate, 39% Conservative). That’s why Liberals have to focus on social issues because economic issues don’t favour them. 69% of voters in the Democratic Party agree on liberal approaches to social issues, while only 49% favour a conservative approach.
But above all, the most interesting one is the YouGov poll. When people were asked about how their politics was described, 21% said “Moderate” described them well, and another 33% said it described them partially. Conservative got 28% and 25% on the same areas. Progressive only scored 18% and 24% in those areas, and Liberal scored 16% and 24%. Socialist? 7+21%. Left Wing? 11+16%. But they went further. They asked which terms used to describe the respondants, and which terms never described them. Socialist and Left-Wing shared a stat line on that response – 51% of people said these terms NEVER described them, while another 6% said the terms used to describe them. Only Radical (64%) and Anarchist (67%) scored harder on the 'I have never been this).
I’m not sure I agree with the notion that today’s Democrats are Reagan’s Republicans, but as long as you keep in mind that you live in a country that over half of people polled vehemently disagreed with being labelled socialist or left-wing, and tailor your solutions to account for that, while trying to do the best to represent Progressive or Liberal goals, I won’t complain hard about whether or not 2024 Dems would be at home in the 1980 RNC.
Is Rupert Murdoch working for the Russians too?
Literally, yes. If you can’t see it, you’re fucking blind.
If that’s too recent for you, how about this one from 2005?
It amazes me how willingly blind to the obvious people are, especially when there’s 20 years of evidence that people are desperate to ignore.
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According to Lemmy, yes. And I am too! I even get paid in “russian bitcoins”! lmao
It’s funny how you always make claims like this but aren’t ever able to produce any proof.