“The SCOPE Act takes effect this Sunday, Sept. 1, and will require everyone to verify their age for social media.”

So how does this work with Lemmy? Is anyone in Texas just banned, is there some sort of third party ID service lined up…for every instance, lol.

But seriously, how does Lemmy (or the fediverse as a whole) comply? Is there some way it just doesn’t need to?

  • abff08f4813c
    link
    fedilink
    12 months ago

    Hold on. You can’t keep personal data longer than needed. Making data disappear from the web is one important demand by the GDPR.

    Agreed, but - while it might be permissible legally to wipe out my data and content, what if I want to retrieve a copy afterwards?

    I wouldn’t want to keep control over other people’s content, but regarding my own…

    “Involuntary data transfer”
    I don’t know what exception that is. There are rules for data breaches. I’m not at all sure how much you have to do to block crawlers.

    Well, in that case, baring credible contradicting information from another source, I think it’s reasonable to accept the note from the former worker of a DPO. Would you agree?

    Comments are problematic because they inherently relate to other persons beside yourself. It could be argued that you have to delete your own writings as well when you shut down your instance.

    Hmm. Will need a good think about this - perhaps I should adjust my commenting style to avoid direct quoting and such…

    Ironically, that is a problem because if there is such an alternative, then it must be used. If you can reach your goal by processing less personal data, then you must do so.

    All the more reason to get started on it, I suppose.

    You’d only be hosting the communities created on your own instance. Apart from that, you’d simply authenticate the identities of users.

    Well, and dealing with responsible for user content from your instance’s local users - but since it’s just the one instance (or small handful if you trust a few others) it’s still much more managable. And it becomes zero for, e.g., single-user instances (since those would have zero other users and thus zero other content to worry about hosting).

    Unfortunately, confirming the identities also means transferring personal data.

    That’s why I had the idea of creating and using the federation-bot account - this way there’s no confirmation of identities or transfer of personal data.

    One question is what that would do to server load. I don’t know.

    Server admin question. Can save that for serverfault.com and the like IMVHO

    Proxying the posts/comments may be the better solution, but when and how that should be done has no clear answer.

    One of those things that need experimentation and research to determine, but an answer can be found.

    Unfortunately, the different DPOs don’t agree on everything. Maybe in a few years, this will all be at a point where ordinary people can be on the safe side by simply following a manual.

    Hmm - if different DPOs can’t agree, then I don’t see how we get to the point of a user friendly manual.

    Maybe it won’t be so much extra effort that it becomes impossible for hobbyists, but - on the whole - the future of the European internet belongs to big players.

    This is what’s inherently disturbing to me. I am one of those hoping that the GDPR would be a tool for the opposite (a way to rein in the big players, so to speak).

    People don’t know the law and just chose to believe a happy fantasy.

    It was a surprise to read from the former DPO worker that email as a system is not compliant with the GDPR.

    I believe, there is no way - at present - that an ordinary person can maintain an internet presence while being compliant with GDPR and other regulations.

    Hmm. I am starting to see why you take this view. Not saying I agree, but I can understand the frustration. That said, PIPEDA in Canada came to pass in 2000 - it’s considered to have GDPR-equivalency and we’ve not had the sort of issues that you are raising with PIPEDA, which makes me optimistic that the GDPR can likewise be something that folks can live with.

    The GDPR is a terrible mistake, but that’s not what people want to hear.

    Even if it is flawed it’s still a step in the right direction IMVHO. I’m in Canada, which had PIPEDA back in 2000 - 18 years before the GDPR took effect in the EU. Hence I believe a solution is workable and a balance can be struck - even if in the worst case that means additional legislation to tweak the existing law. (Though I’d not even go that far - for example, from the former DPO, it seems that if EU courts all agreed that the API behind federation was covered by the “involuntary data transfer” exception then Lemmy would already be GDPR compliant (or mostly so) as-is of the time that I write this.)

    • @General_Effort
      link
      12 months ago

      Agreed, but - while it might be permissible legally to wipe out my data and content, what if I want to retrieve a copy afterwards?

      You have the right to request a copy of all your personal data from whoever controls it. Apparently that feature is still missing from lemmy.

      Well, in that case, baring credible contradicting information from another source, I think it’s reasonable to accept the note from the former worker of a DPO. Would you agree?

      That quote is from here: https://lemmy.world/post/1060627

      I think I agree with pretty much everything they wrote. From what I understand, the apostrophes indicate that this is not official jargon. You can’t prevent web-scraping with any reasonable effort, so you don’t have to. The internet already exists. It’s too late to stop it now; better focus on stopping future progress.

      Mind that there is nothing involuntary about federation. It’s not like web-scraping in that respect. You can just turn it off. You are left with something like an old school forum or reddit. No problem.

      Hmm. Will need a good think about this - perhaps I should adjust my commenting style to avoid direct quoting and such…

      If you take the view that context is a necessary part of your personal data, then merely avoiding quotes is probably not enough. Practically, the way reddit is doing things seems to be fine.

      That’s why I had the idea of creating and using the federation-bot account - this way there’s no confirmation of identities or transfer of personal data.

      But what if someone wants to participate in a community on a different instance? At least, the texts and their context, along with the username and home instance, need to be revealed.

      Taking a mental step back, it’s probably premature to worry about technological implementations. Sending data around does not have to be a violation. Compliance will require partly better information, and partly different administration. The legal aspects should be worked out before the necessary tools for the administrators are implemented.

      There are also a lot of regulation for the backend, that instance owners have to comply with but which won’t be noticed by users. Documenting the data processing, who has access, possibly make data impact assessments, maybe notify the local data protection office, … There’s also more from the DSA, like releasing transparency reports on moderation twice a year, making regular backups and testing those, … I’m not quite sure what all is demanded by the DSA. Oh, and by german law there also needs to be a (physical) address that can be served legal papers.

      Hmm - if different DPOs can’t agree, then I don’t see how we get to the point of a user friendly manual.

      I’m thinking about the issue of web-scraping, in particular. Some say that it’s almost always illegal. The European Commission, for one, disagrees.

      I pulled this from google: https://www.morganlewis.com/pubs/2024/05/eu-regulator-adopts-restrictive-gdpr-position-on-data-scraping-impacting-ai-technologies

      Web-scraping is in some ways related. You could also get (almost all of) the data through scraping. If it’s not legal to scrape lemmy without permission, then it’s probably not legal to spin up your own instance and get the data that way. It depends on your purpose, of course.

      That’s also why I find the whole issue a little silly. Someone outside Europe could just scrape the data from the web interface and not worry about the GDPR. You’d have to put all of Europe behind a firewall to make it make sense. That’s a prime example of why I say the people in charge of the GDPR have no idea of the technology they are regulating.

      This is what’s inherently disturbing to me. I am one of those hoping that the GDPR would be a tool for the opposite (a way to rein in the big players, so to speak).

      Such regulation inherently favors big players. The cost of creating a compliant service/app/etc is fairly constant, regardless of the size of the user base.

      Besides, the GDPR inherently favors elites. Has anyone ever tracked your private jet on twitter? Or chased after you to get paparazzi pictures? Some people’s personal data is worth a lot more than that of others. Most people will never have to worry about scrubbing unflattering media stories from search engines, or have the money to hire professionals to do it right.

      Even if it is flawed it’s still a step in the right direction IMVHO. I’m in Canada, which had PIPEDA back in 2000 - 18 years before the GDPR took effect in the EU.

      Tell me what you hope the GDPR will achieve and I’ll tell you if there is any chance. I’d write what the fundamental problems are, but time is short.