With membership at new lows and no electoral wins to their name, it’s time for the Greens to ditch the malignant narcissist who’s presided over its decline.
“With membership at new lows and no electoral wins to their name, it’s time for the Greens to ditch the malignant narcissist who’s presided over its decline.”
By extension you are enabling Donald Trump. So, quite frankly, insults are required.
If more of you “conscientious objectors” actually showed up to vote we could actually start working on the Democratic party and trying to shape it better by pushing for more progressive candidates within the party. Instead you’re giving meat to the right by leaving the vote tallies at too close to call numbers while Jill Stein gets her not even 5% of the vote and then walks home with all those juicy endorsements which she will spin into nice fat paid lectures. All the while holding us in this pattern of continually fighting against the absolute evil that is conservativism. We are fighting for a better world, while you are throwing a tantrum.
Wait, my vote for PSL won’t be counted for trump so how do I enable trump?
I’m also literally talking about voting not staying home, so idk what you mean by showing up to vote.
Pushing the democrats left has never worked in my lifetime and possibly ever. It’s especially dubious when the democrat candidate has carved out explicitly right wing dare I call them fascist positions on the border, Gaza and elsewhere.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I’m a big hater of the greens. You don’t have to convince me that they’re a directionless triangulation meant to make money.
Every vote for Harris is stealing a vote from third-party candidates who represent real change. By sidelining those voices, you’re indirectly helping Trump win!
Cool. Not sure I’ve seen anyone arguing against that point.
And of course you’ve been working all the time for the past four years in support of socialism and liberation? Because of course, you wouldn’t be one of the people who only jump in every four years with a third party vote because they think it makes them edgy and cool? That would just be sad.
A lot of the tone of these anti green posts seems pointed at pushing people to vote for the democrats instead. I’m as anti Green Party as they come, but I want to make sure people know there are still good third parties to support.
As a member of the lemmy instance for privacy and open source, I’m not gonna dox myself, but yeah, I’m absolutely politically active in the off years lol.
You wouldn’t happen to be trying to badjacket people or gatekeep support for PSL, would you? Because first timers and those newly disillusioned with the democrats are welcome to vote for PSL. No experience required.
I have a question about PSL. My organizational background is in labor mostly, though I have done some door knocking for critical elections.
How is your candidate getting however many votes (feel free to estimate) going to help the working class? Or alternatively, how does your electoral campaign help PSL? Is this ultimately a recruitment drive?
Well, PSL is a socialist party with a platform that explicitly promotes worker control over the means of production, but on a less theoretical level, they show up and provide material support to strikes and worker action.
So if it was just a recruitment drive I think it would be good because a bigger psl means more support for workers.
But I honestly don’t think it is just a recruitment drive. Psl seems to have an actual theory of power that is in opposition to the structures of power that support the democrats and republicans.
In order to build that power psl needs to show people that their government doesn’t have to be trash which doesn’t represent them or help them. Participating in electoralism does that.
Even if psl goes nowhere, a big showing would force other major parties to recognize that there is significant support and, critically now, stability to be gained by adopting the principles of a pro worker party.
So pretty much I think it’s an unalloyed good for workers.
Yeah, I’m just wondering why they’re launching a national presidential campaign rather than trying to win locally first. See for example DSA’s (the veil falls lol) cadre candidates like Zohran Mamdani.
It seems to me like PSL is skipping this step and going straight to national, with the net result of devoting a lot of energy that could be spent on worker organizing on a campaign that everyone knows is not going to win.
This also bears the risk of helping Trump win by siphoning off votes from Harris, and a Trump victory will have damaging effects on the NLRB, an organization which in its current state is making it a lot easier for workers to unionize.
So I’m just not seeing how any third party presidential run ties into building worker power, but maybe I am missing something.
I think if psl were just running a presidential candidate and nothing else then you’d have a good point, but especially in California (the party started there?) they run a bunch of candidates for different positions.
I think that’s different from dsa because psl purports to have party discipline whereas that was a big problem and point of contention in dsa over the past four years.
I actually think that to the extent it matters, parties like dsa and greens take away more votes from the democrats because they’re basically places for spicy or heady democrats to go respectively.
Of course, the onus falls on the political party plying their platform to pander to the populace and not the reverse, so basically if the democrats want psl, dsa or green votes it’s their responsibility to adopt those positions or enter into some coalition with those parties.
As far as the nlrb goes, the next step is the same if we end up with an extension of the Biden nlrb, a trump nlrb (or the dissolution thereof) or some third party nlrb: build and express worker power that can actually successfully demand concessions from the ruling class as opposed to subsist on crumbs allowed to fall from the table.
I don’t honestly think it would be significantly easier under Biden than trump and the rail strike is evidence. Rather than acquiesce to some pretty milquetoast demands, the Biden administration broke the strike.
My local is great but I don’t have any others to compare to so it’s a pretty vapid description. There’s a PSL here too and they come to a lot of our events. It’s always interesting to hear from the more radical formation.
The thing with DSA “party discipline” is that it’s not a political party. It’s basically a nonprofit with local chapters that all have their own agendas, some of which run candidates. So I’m interested to see what happens with a more centralized (as far as I understand it anyway) structure like PSL.
In terms of labor organizing I do think the political climate matters. The rail strike is an example of national scale union busting, but on more local levels (Starbucks, Amazon, Cemex…) that the NLRB actually matters. Here’s an article about it.
I interact with a decent amount of dsa people too. In conversation we tend to disagree about some things but in the moment of a conflict they’re right there. I think the police would get a lot farther with them over a cup of coffee than with the plastic shields lol.
I think the party discipline is important in a moment of movement building because it keeps party candidates honest. It makes sense why dsa doesn’t and kinda can’t have it, but for me it’s something important.
You’re right that a pliable nlrb was important in getting some of the victories lately. I guess I have a pretty pessimistic view of the position organized labor is in now considering it’s experiencing a resurgence and we still have declining union density over that same time frame.
From my perspective an nlrb that will play nice is the least of our worries.
will be voting for the PSL if they’re on the ballot in my state, Claudia De la Cruz is great. if they don’t make it on the ballot then it’ll probably go to Stein as I believe she’s confirmed on the ballot in my state, but the PSL is my first choice!
edit: just checked, the PSL is indeed on the ballot in my state, so they’ve got my vote :3
I’m voting for the party for socialism and liberation and you can too.
You don’t need to vote green to cast a third party ballot.
So basically what you’re saying is you’re not voting this year.
No, I didn’t say that.
My ballot will be counted for PSL.
That’s the opposite of not voting.
You know… voting.
And it will mean nothing to anyone other than yourself.
You’re replying to me about it so it means something to you too! ❤️
Yeah, you are voting for literally nobody. If you’d stayed at home, nothing would be different.
No, PSL is running Claudia de la Cruz. That’s who I’m voting for, not nobody.
If you think my vote doesn’t change anything then why do you keep replying about it?
Removed by mod
Surely you can state your case without resorting to insults?
It would be a real bummer if you were only trying to browbeat and shame people into voting how you like!
By extension you are enabling Donald Trump. So, quite frankly, insults are required.
If more of you “conscientious objectors” actually showed up to vote we could actually start working on the Democratic party and trying to shape it better by pushing for more progressive candidates within the party. Instead you’re giving meat to the right by leaving the vote tallies at too close to call numbers while Jill Stein gets her not even 5% of the vote and then walks home with all those juicy endorsements which she will spin into nice fat paid lectures. All the while holding us in this pattern of continually fighting against the absolute evil that is conservativism. We are fighting for a better world, while you are throwing a tantrum.
Wait, my vote for PSL won’t be counted for trump so how do I enable trump?
I’m also literally talking about voting not staying home, so idk what you mean by showing up to vote.
Pushing the democrats left has never worked in my lifetime and possibly ever. It’s especially dubious when the democrat candidate has carved out explicitly right wing dare I call them fascist positions on the border, Gaza and elsewhere.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I’m a big hater of the greens. You don’t have to convince me that they’re a directionless triangulation meant to make money.
Every vote for Harris is stealing a vote from third-party candidates who represent real change. By sidelining those voices, you’re indirectly helping Trump win!
Not on Lemmy!
Cool. Not sure I’ve seen anyone arguing against that point.
And of course you’ve been working all the time for the past four years in support of socialism and liberation? Because of course, you wouldn’t be one of the people who only jump in every four years with a third party vote because they think it makes them edgy and cool? That would just be sad.
A lot of the tone of these anti green posts seems pointed at pushing people to vote for the democrats instead. I’m as anti Green Party as they come, but I want to make sure people know there are still good third parties to support.
As a member of the lemmy instance for privacy and open source, I’m not gonna dox myself, but yeah, I’m absolutely politically active in the off years lol.
You wouldn’t happen to be trying to badjacket people or gatekeep support for PSL, would you? Because first timers and those newly disillusioned with the democrats are welcome to vote for PSL. No experience required.
I have a question about PSL. My organizational background is in labor mostly, though I have done some door knocking for critical elections.
How is your candidate getting however many votes (feel free to estimate) going to help the working class? Or alternatively, how does your electoral campaign help PSL? Is this ultimately a recruitment drive?
Well, PSL is a socialist party with a platform that explicitly promotes worker control over the means of production, but on a less theoretical level, they show up and provide material support to strikes and worker action.
So if it was just a recruitment drive I think it would be good because a bigger psl means more support for workers.
But I honestly don’t think it is just a recruitment drive. Psl seems to have an actual theory of power that is in opposition to the structures of power that support the democrats and republicans.
In order to build that power psl needs to show people that their government doesn’t have to be trash which doesn’t represent them or help them. Participating in electoralism does that.
Even if psl goes nowhere, a big showing would force other major parties to recognize that there is significant support and, critically now, stability to be gained by adopting the principles of a pro worker party.
So pretty much I think it’s an unalloyed good for workers.
Yeah, I’m just wondering why they’re launching a national presidential campaign rather than trying to win locally first. See for example DSA’s (the veil falls lol) cadre candidates like Zohran Mamdani.
It seems to me like PSL is skipping this step and going straight to national, with the net result of devoting a lot of energy that could be spent on worker organizing on a campaign that everyone knows is not going to win.
This also bears the risk of helping Trump win by siphoning off votes from Harris, and a Trump victory will have damaging effects on the NLRB, an organization which in its current state is making it a lot easier for workers to unionize.
So I’m just not seeing how any third party presidential run ties into building worker power, but maybe I am missing something.
I think if psl were just running a presidential candidate and nothing else then you’d have a good point, but especially in California (the party started there?) they run a bunch of candidates for different positions.
I think that’s different from dsa because psl purports to have party discipline whereas that was a big problem and point of contention in dsa over the past four years.
I actually think that to the extent it matters, parties like dsa and greens take away more votes from the democrats because they’re basically places for spicy or heady democrats to go respectively.
Of course, the onus falls on the political party plying their platform to pander to the populace and not the reverse, so basically if the democrats want psl, dsa or green votes it’s their responsibility to adopt those positions or enter into some coalition with those parties.
As far as the nlrb goes, the next step is the same if we end up with an extension of the Biden nlrb, a trump nlrb (or the dissolution thereof) or some third party nlrb: build and express worker power that can actually successfully demand concessions from the ruling class as opposed to subsist on crumbs allowed to fall from the table.
I don’t honestly think it would be significantly easier under Biden than trump and the rail strike is evidence. Rather than acquiesce to some pretty milquetoast demands, the Biden administration broke the strike.
If you’re involved in dsa, how’s your local?
My local is great but I don’t have any others to compare to so it’s a pretty vapid description. There’s a PSL here too and they come to a lot of our events. It’s always interesting to hear from the more radical formation.
The thing with DSA “party discipline” is that it’s not a political party. It’s basically a nonprofit with local chapters that all have their own agendas, some of which run candidates. So I’m interested to see what happens with a more centralized (as far as I understand it anyway) structure like PSL.
In terms of labor organizing I do think the political climate matters. The rail strike is an example of national scale union busting, but on more local levels (Starbucks, Amazon, Cemex…) that the NLRB actually matters. Here’s an article about it.
https://www.laborpolitics.com/p/how-bidens-nlrb-has-boosted-bottom
I interact with a decent amount of dsa people too. In conversation we tend to disagree about some things but in the moment of a conflict they’re right there. I think the police would get a lot farther with them over a cup of coffee than with the plastic shields lol.
I think the party discipline is important in a moment of movement building because it keeps party candidates honest. It makes sense why dsa doesn’t and kinda can’t have it, but for me it’s something important.
You’re right that a pliable nlrb was important in getting some of the victories lately. I guess I have a pretty pessimistic view of the position organized labor is in now considering it’s experiencing a resurgence and we still have declining union density over that same time frame.
From my perspective an nlrb that will play nice is the least of our worries.
will be voting for the PSL if they’re on the ballot in my state, Claudia De la Cruz is great. if they don’t make it on the ballot then it’ll probably go to Stein as I believe she’s confirmed on the ballot in my state, but the PSL is my first choice!
edit: just checked, the PSL is indeed on the ballot in my state, so they’ve got my vote :3