Don’t trust their range claims, most of the time they are exaggerated and only able to get that range on a perfect day doing constant 45mph without hills.
Do you have a reliable place to charge it?
If you don’t have a personal parking place, and cannot install a charger at said place, trusting you have the range you need gets difficult, and expensive. As you have to rely on public chargers that are not very reliable, and worse for battery longevity (level 3 chargers)
Speaking of range. What range do you actually NEED? My opinion is the minimum range should be double the normal daily commute, as most level 2 chargers can add ~18 miles/he charging (overnight charge means 144 miles charge).
Double your commute gives you a buffer for the heater, or the grocery run after work. For most people this is only 80 miles… which almost every electric only car can do without issues.
Is the cost worth the vehicle?
Buying new is expensive, buying used can be risky. Do your research thoroughly and you’ll be able to decide what fits what you NEED (and that answer may easily be a used ICE vehicle instead)
I’ve had a full electric vehicle for 5+ years now as my daily. But I have always had a personal parking place, with a level 2 charger.
I consider electric only to be a commuter car at best. It’s not going to be able to do a road trip. And depending on the car and the commute may even not be able to do a grocery run after work some days.
If you have another car that is ICE that you can keep for those times, cool. Or if you are ok with planning, and rent a car when you want to do a road trip, great.
Personally I suggest a plug in hybrid for anyone who can only have one car, and is considering going electric. Prius prime, Chevy volt, Chrysler Pacifica are the ones that have enough range for a short commute, the rest are trying but just haven’t gotten there yet.
Teslas are exaggerated, the rest of the market is dead on for range estimates. EVs are great for road trips, you have to stop for bathroom breaks anyway. L1 chargers at home are fine and L2 chargers get you through every day perfectly fine. You only really need L3 for road trips.
I consider electric only to be a commuter car at best. It’s not going to be able to do a road trip. And depending on the car and the commute may even not be able to do a grocery run after work some days.
I really wonder what kind of car you drive. Sounds like a Nissan Leaf or something.
I’ll share a couple of anecdotes regarding my experience with EVs:
My parents live on a farm in rural Maine. They are on their second Chevy Bolt (first was a lease, and they liked it so much that they upgraded to a later generation when the lease expired). It’s an inexpensive, no-frills EV that is their primary means of transportation. Living in the country, the shortest trip they take is likely to be at least 20 miles round-trip. In the past, I’ve borrowed that car for an overnight trip to Vermont. We made sure to charge it at home before the leaving, and drove to Vermont without needing to stop. I don’t recall the exact distance, but it was about 4 hours of driving through rolling hills. We charged it again in Vermont, and drove home the next day.
My partner and I have a 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5 that we bought used for $28k. It’s all-wheel drive and has a battery warmer, both of which are helpful in cold climates. We do not have a charger at home. My wife’s commute is 20 miles round trip, and we are able to charge the car where she works, which we do roughly once a week. Although the car itself is capable of charging very quickly, the charger available to us is a low-power home charger, so it’s nice to be able to leave it plugged in during the full work day. We don’t hesitate to take this car on longer trips, especially if they take the interstate highway system or pass through major cities, where faster charging is always available.
When I bought the car, it was 150 miles away from my house. It was charged to 100% when I picked it up, and the car estimated 300 miles of range. We arrived at home with 50% charge remaining, so I’d say the 300 mile range was pretty accurate.
With this car and our charging habits, daily driving doesn’t really require any special thought or planning at all. For longer trips, anything less than a 150 mile round trip requires no more planning than “I should make sure to charge it within a day or so of the trip, if possible.” For a trip in the 250 mile range, I would definitely prefer to start fully charged, if possible, otherwise I’d want to explore charging options along the way. Only if going over that would I definitely feel the need to investigate charging options at my destination or along the route. A home charger would make things even simpler, but as it is it’s so low-stress that we don’t feel a lot of urgency to get one installed.
I recommend reading Tim Bray’s experiences with several years of EV-only ownership, including some long (1000+ mile) road trips in Canada. Here are a couple:
I live in the western us, where 150 miles isn’t all that far, and 200 between compatible fast chargers can be normal depending on where you’re driving.
In the end it’s all about everyone’s personal situation. Mine is, that battery is only a commuter because there’s no way I can afford the 400+ mile cars (nor am I interested in them anyways)
I’ve found that buying used is fine if the car is still under the manufacturers original warranty. Better yet if it has the premium/extended warranty package.
That’s basically the only warranty that you would care about (and actually want to extend), most other warranties have so many exclusions that they’re not worth it. And definitely ignore anyone calling you telling you that they’ve “been trying to reach you about your cars extended warranty.”
as most level 2 chargers can add ~18 miles/he charging (overnight charge means 144 miles charge).
Level 2 EVSEs (the charger is actually in the car) have a wide cross-section of power delivery. Portable units are usually limited to ~20 amps and will do this level of charge. Installed units with a sufficient circuit can charge at a rate 40 - 60 miles / hour. They are also considerably more expensive and should be installed by an electrician (adding more cost).
For the record, Level 1 EVSE’s (that plug into a US 110v outlet) only do 3 - 5 miles/hour. Important to know for US renters who might not be able to get a 220v circuit to their parking spot.
I’ve found the range is better than what they claim for stop and go city driving due to regen braking. But otherwise the range estimate is about as accurate as the miles per gallon estimate on a gas car.
It is definitely way cheaper to own than a gas car.
Double your commute gives you a buffer for the heater, or the grocery run after work. For most people this is only 80 miles… which almost every electric only car can do without issues.
Is the cost worth the vehicle?
This is where I get grumpy. I feel like that kind of range is a different category of vehicle, and it should be significantly cheaper than an ICEV, since it means I need to plan around the range.
I realize it’s the size of the battery pack, so it isn’t where most of the cost of the vehicle comes from, but still.
When it’s time to replace my current vehicle, I’ll probably go PHEV. But ideally public transit will be solved, so I won’t need to. 🤣
A vehicle that can do a daily commute for 7k would be perfect. If you’re talking about the Fiat 500e, it’s 34k in my region. The cheapest used I can see is 22k.
Do you really NEED to be able to drive 300 miles every day? If so, battery isn’t likely for you. And if you don’t need to, why cry that it can’t?
This comes across as hostile.
My complaint is price points. When I get reduced range, I feel like I should pay less. An EV with a range of 120km in the winter for 7k would be amazing. It’d be a decent deal up until 15k. After that, the apparent value drops off. Like I said in my post, a PHEV feels like better value.
Yup I agree for most people the phev is much more logical. Though the complexity comes with lessened reliability and more costly repairs.
I also agree that the low mile capable ev are a bit over priced. I bought the 500e with 20k miles.
It has 65k now and I could probably sell it for the same 7k I bought it for.
Because I need to drive 300 miles every few months and a car I own that can do that is cheaper than a car that can’t and renting something that can for the few times I need it. Rental cars are expensive and most come with per mile charges on top of the daily rate.
It takes less than twenty minutes to charge enough to make that in any modern ev. Unless you’re filling up on gas before your trips anyway, you’re still gonna have to stop. The difference in time is negligible.
Not even 20 minutes. If you are doing 300 miles, you probably only need to sit on the charger for maybe an extra 100 miles of charge. That is maybe 5-10 minutes.
Or if you get something like the Equinox EV, you may not have to charge during that trip at all.
Gas cars fill even faster. Many EVs don’t charge at high speeds, and not all chargers support high speeds even if the car can. Evs do have the advantage of being fully charged before you leave, so trips that can be done on one charge never need to stop. However longer trips have issues.
Don’t forget that EV chargers are not nearly as common as gasoline. It is rare that someone needs to plan gas stops on a trip, when the gauge gets down to 1/4 you stop at the next town is the rule most people use (there is variation, those who use 1/8 as the rule sometimes run out of gas, some use 1/2). For EV trips you still have to plan your charging stops, particularly if you are getting off the well traveled path - you can still make most trips but you better how the chargers are working when you get there
Not only that, as EVS get more popular those stations will get more saturated. Even with more stations that means longer waits. Imagine a line for gas where it takes 5 total minutes to fill, if that. Now imagine that line with 20+ minute EV charging, per vehicle.
Im not against EVS but there are drawbacks. Acting like there aren’t isn’t doing Anyone any good.
Quite frankly I wish they’d just spend money on public transit.
Is the cost worth the vehicle?
Buying new is expensive, buying used can be risky. Do your research thoroughly and you’ll be able to decide what fits what you NEED (and that answer may easily be a used ICE vehicle instead)
This is one of the rare cases where, at least for right now, leasing a new vehicle may make more sense financially than purchasing outright. For one thing, many more cars are eligible for the $7500 federal tax rebate when leased instead of purchased. For another, used electric vehicles seem to lose their value a lot more than ICE vehicles. This is a combination of newer, better cars being released at lower prices than previous vehicles and consumers being unsure of the capacities of older battery packs. The latter is seeming to be less of an issue than feared based on preliminary data, but we really only have long-term results for a few models. The former is much more volatile from the market, though. Elon Musk single-handedly tanked used car values when he dropped prices on model 3 and Y vehicles, and it happens every time they cut prices, but Tesla is not the only electric manufacturer that’s been cutting prices on new cars. While manufacturers would love to sell for high prices, the reality is they need a larger market to be profitable from economies of scale, so as they reduce costs there’s been a general trend to cut prices too, either by cutting prices on existing models or introducing new, less-expensive models.
All of that is to say, it looks like the leasing companies aren’t factoring in enough depreciation on current leases. A lease is essentially you paying for the depreciation of the car. If you’re paying for a $50,000 car to be worth $35,00 in two years but it actually ends up being worth $25,000 in that time you’ve come out ahead, especially compared to if you bought it and tried to sell it yourself.
Spot on. Another thing to consider is weather. EVs perform worse in cold weather - lower ranger and slower charging. Some manufacturers are worse than others. Preconditioning while plugged in is super helpful in below freezing temperatures and use the heated seats and heated steering wheel instead of climate control if you can.
Just needs some research if you live somewhere where below freezing temperatures occur at times in a year. Absolutely not a reason to avoid EVs altogether, just know the limitations, what to expect, and how to best mitigate some of the limitations.
Battery temperature management seems to be a key limiting factor.
At least a few years ago, and likely still, the reasons and conditions under which the barrier layers in the battery degrade were not super well understood. Heat seems to be a key contributing factor and charging a battery quickly warms up the battery and I suppose not fully evenly within a cell. Not knowing the complete extent of this makes the early LEAF’s lack of actively cooled battery a reasonable choice. Before that, the batteries of earliest Prius cars held up way longer than expected.
Like with a phone: heat and cold is not super awesome for the battery. It seems heat is especially bad for longevity.
Its not to high or bad for them, it’s more like it just pushes the system to its max over and over. They are designed for fast charging.
Its like stretching a rubber band that can go to 3ft over and over. Its part of its design, but it will cause more wear and tear then just stretching it a few inches.
Make sure that the car matches your expectations.
Don’t trust their range claims, most of the time they are exaggerated and only able to get that range on a perfect day doing constant 45mph without hills.
Do you have a reliable place to charge it? If you don’t have a personal parking place, and cannot install a charger at said place, trusting you have the range you need gets difficult, and expensive. As you have to rely on public chargers that are not very reliable, and worse for battery longevity (level 3 chargers)
Speaking of range. What range do you actually NEED? My opinion is the minimum range should be double the normal daily commute, as most level 2 chargers can add ~18 miles/he charging (overnight charge means 144 miles charge). Double your commute gives you a buffer for the heater, or the grocery run after work. For most people this is only 80 miles… which almost every electric only car can do without issues.
Is the cost worth the vehicle? Buying new is expensive, buying used can be risky. Do your research thoroughly and you’ll be able to decide what fits what you NEED (and that answer may easily be a used ICE vehicle instead)
I’ve had a full electric vehicle for 5+ years now as my daily. But I have always had a personal parking place, with a level 2 charger. I consider electric only to be a commuter car at best. It’s not going to be able to do a road trip. And depending on the car and the commute may even not be able to do a grocery run after work some days. If you have another car that is ICE that you can keep for those times, cool. Or if you are ok with planning, and rent a car when you want to do a road trip, great.
Personally I suggest a plug in hybrid for anyone who can only have one car, and is considering going electric. Prius prime, Chevy volt, Chrysler Pacifica are the ones that have enough range for a short commute, the rest are trying but just haven’t gotten there yet.
Teslas are exaggerated, the rest of the market is dead on for range estimates. EVs are great for road trips, you have to stop for bathroom breaks anyway. L1 chargers at home are fine and L2 chargers get you through every day perfectly fine. You only really need L3 for road trips.
I really wonder what kind of car you drive. Sounds like a Nissan Leaf or something.
I’ll share a couple of anecdotes regarding my experience with EVs:
My parents live on a farm in rural Maine. They are on their second Chevy Bolt (first was a lease, and they liked it so much that they upgraded to a later generation when the lease expired). It’s an inexpensive, no-frills EV that is their primary means of transportation. Living in the country, the shortest trip they take is likely to be at least 20 miles round-trip. In the past, I’ve borrowed that car for an overnight trip to Vermont. We made sure to charge it at home before the leaving, and drove to Vermont without needing to stop. I don’t recall the exact distance, but it was about 4 hours of driving through rolling hills. We charged it again in Vermont, and drove home the next day.
My partner and I have a 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5 that we bought used for $28k. It’s all-wheel drive and has a battery warmer, both of which are helpful in cold climates. We do not have a charger at home. My wife’s commute is 20 miles round trip, and we are able to charge the car where she works, which we do roughly once a week. Although the car itself is capable of charging very quickly, the charger available to us is a low-power home charger, so it’s nice to be able to leave it plugged in during the full work day. We don’t hesitate to take this car on longer trips, especially if they take the interstate highway system or pass through major cities, where faster charging is always available.
When I bought the car, it was 150 miles away from my house. It was charged to 100% when I picked it up, and the car estimated 300 miles of range. We arrived at home with 50% charge remaining, so I’d say the 300 mile range was pretty accurate.
With this car and our charging habits, daily driving doesn’t really require any special thought or planning at all. For longer trips, anything less than a 150 mile round trip requires no more planning than “I should make sure to charge it within a day or so of the trip, if possible.” For a trip in the 250 mile range, I would definitely prefer to start fully charged, if possible, otherwise I’d want to explore charging options along the way. Only if going over that would I definitely feel the need to investigate charging options at my destination or along the route. A home charger would make things even simpler, but as it is it’s so low-stress that we don’t feel a lot of urgency to get one installed.
I recommend reading Tim Bray’s experiences with several years of EV-only ownership, including some long (1000+ mile) road trips in Canada. Here are a couple:
I live in the western us, where 150 miles isn’t all that far, and 200 between compatible fast chargers can be normal depending on where you’re driving.
In the end it’s all about everyone’s personal situation. Mine is, that battery is only a commuter because there’s no way I can afford the 400+ mile cars (nor am I interested in them anyways)
Yep, I live in the south and we will regularly (several times a year) drive 300 miles or more to visit the various families.
If you’re pushing for the lowest range, lowest cost EV that covers your daily needs, it will be a commuter-only car.
I’ve found that buying used is fine if the car is still under the manufacturers original warranty. Better yet if it has the premium/extended warranty package.
That’s basically the only warranty that you would care about (and actually want to extend), most other warranties have so many exclusions that they’re not worth it. And definitely ignore anyone calling you telling you that they’ve “been trying to reach you about your cars extended warranty.”
Level 2 EVSEs (the charger is actually in the car) have a wide cross-section of power delivery. Portable units are usually limited to ~20 amps and will do this level of charge. Installed units with a sufficient circuit can charge at a rate 40 - 60 miles / hour. They are also considerably more expensive and should be installed by an electrician (adding more cost).
For the record, Level 1 EVSE’s (that plug into a US 110v outlet) only do 3 - 5 miles/hour. Important to know for US renters who might not be able to get a 220v circuit to their parking spot.
I’ve found the range is better than what they claim for stop and go city driving due to regen braking. But otherwise the range estimate is about as accurate as the miles per gallon estimate on a gas car.
It is definitely way cheaper to own than a gas car.
This is where I get grumpy. I feel like that kind of range is a different category of vehicle, and it should be significantly cheaper than an ICEV, since it means I need to plan around the range.
I realize it’s the size of the battery pack, so it isn’t where most of the cost of the vehicle comes from, but still.
When it’s time to replace my current vehicle, I’ll probably go PHEV. But ideally public transit will be solved, so I won’t need to. 🤣
That kind of range is a different vehicle. My 500e I bought for 7k. It’s the perfect commuter.
Do you really NEED to be able to drive 300 miles every day? If so, battery isn’t likely for you. And if you don’t need to, why cry that it can’t?
A vehicle that can do a daily commute for 7k would be perfect. If you’re talking about the Fiat 500e, it’s 34k in my region. The cheapest used I can see is 22k.
This comes across as hostile.
My complaint is price points. When I get reduced range, I feel like I should pay less. An EV with a range of 120km in the winter for 7k would be amazing. It’d be a decent deal up until 15k. After that, the apparent value drops off. Like I said in my post, a PHEV feels like better value.
Yup I agree for most people the phev is much more logical. Though the complexity comes with lessened reliability and more costly repairs.
I also agree that the low mile capable ev are a bit over priced. I bought the 500e with 20k miles. It has 65k now and I could probably sell it for the same 7k I bought it for.
Because I need to drive 300 miles every few months and a car I own that can do that is cheaper than a car that can’t and renting something that can for the few times I need it. Rental cars are expensive and most come with per mile charges on top of the daily rate.
It takes less than twenty minutes to charge enough to make that in any modern ev. Unless you’re filling up on gas before your trips anyway, you’re still gonna have to stop. The difference in time is negligible.
Not even 20 minutes. If you are doing 300 miles, you probably only need to sit on the charger for maybe an extra 100 miles of charge. That is maybe 5-10 minutes.
Or if you get something like the Equinox EV, you may not have to charge during that trip at all.
Gas cars fill even faster. Many EVs don’t charge at high speeds, and not all chargers support high speeds even if the car can. Evs do have the advantage of being fully charged before you leave, so trips that can be done on one charge never need to stop. However longer trips have issues.
Don’t forget that EV chargers are not nearly as common as gasoline. It is rare that someone needs to plan gas stops on a trip, when the gauge gets down to 1/4 you stop at the next town is the rule most people use (there is variation, those who use 1/8 as the rule sometimes run out of gas, some use 1/2). For EV trips you still have to plan your charging stops, particularly if you are getting off the well traveled path - you can still make most trips but you better how the chargers are working when you get there
Not only that, as EVS get more popular those stations will get more saturated. Even with more stations that means longer waits. Imagine a line for gas where it takes 5 total minutes to fill, if that. Now imagine that line with 20+ minute EV charging, per vehicle.
Im not against EVS but there are drawbacks. Acting like there aren’t isn’t doing Anyone any good.
Quite frankly I wish they’d just spend money on public transit.
If you buy a PHEV be prepared for the cost of a gas car and an EV combined
This is one of the rare cases where, at least for right now, leasing a new vehicle may make more sense financially than purchasing outright. For one thing, many more cars are eligible for the $7500 federal tax rebate when leased instead of purchased. For another, used electric vehicles seem to lose their value a lot more than ICE vehicles. This is a combination of newer, better cars being released at lower prices than previous vehicles and consumers being unsure of the capacities of older battery packs. The latter is seeming to be less of an issue than feared based on preliminary data, but we really only have long-term results for a few models. The former is much more volatile from the market, though. Elon Musk single-handedly tanked used car values when he dropped prices on model 3 and Y vehicles, and it happens every time they cut prices, but Tesla is not the only electric manufacturer that’s been cutting prices on new cars. While manufacturers would love to sell for high prices, the reality is they need a larger market to be profitable from economies of scale, so as they reduce costs there’s been a general trend to cut prices too, either by cutting prices on existing models or introducing new, less-expensive models.
All of that is to say, it looks like the leasing companies aren’t factoring in enough depreciation on current leases. A lease is essentially you paying for the depreciation of the car. If you’re paying for a $50,000 car to be worth $35,00 in two years but it actually ends up being worth $25,000 in that time you’ve come out ahead, especially compared to if you bought it and tried to sell it yourself.
Spot on. Another thing to consider is weather. EVs perform worse in cold weather - lower ranger and slower charging. Some manufacturers are worse than others. Preconditioning while plugged in is super helpful in below freezing temperatures and use the heated seats and heated steering wheel instead of climate control if you can.
Just needs some research if you live somewhere where below freezing temperatures occur at times in a year. Absolutely not a reason to avoid EVs altogether, just know the limitations, what to expect, and how to best mitigate some of the limitations.
Is this because the power on fast charges is too high and bad for batteries in the long run?
Not "too high"technically. But does put more load on the battery, causing more dendritic growth in the cells.
Battery temperature management seems to be a key limiting factor.
At least a few years ago, and likely still, the reasons and conditions under which the barrier layers in the battery degrade were not super well understood. Heat seems to be a key contributing factor and charging a battery quickly warms up the battery and I suppose not fully evenly within a cell. Not knowing the complete extent of this makes the early LEAF’s lack of actively cooled battery a reasonable choice. Before that, the batteries of earliest Prius cars held up way longer than expected.
Like with a phone: heat and cold is not super awesome for the battery. It seems heat is especially bad for longevity.
Its not to high or bad for them, it’s more like it just pushes the system to its max over and over. They are designed for fast charging.
Its like stretching a rubber band that can go to 3ft over and over. Its part of its design, but it will cause more wear and tear then just stretching it a few inches.
You’re saying it’s not too high or bad for them then you say it will cause more wear and tear. Which do you mean?
This wall of text is like an EV prophylactic