If Israel de-occupies Palestinian and Lebanese land, stops blockading Gaza, stops blowing up chunks of it’s neighbors, then it removes any moral grounds for them to continue fighting Israel. Instead we’re to believe Israel is the defender when they’ve occupied their neighbors for 50+ years.
All of them. If you want to compare killing civilians there’s a graphic around here showing that Israel has killed far more, every year. Of course I wish they’d target active military and civilians involved specifically in Israel’s MIC. But if Israel’s strikes on hospitals are justified then so are the ones you’re worried about. You can’t have it both ways.
They don’t have to go anywhere. They just don’t get a religious ethnostate any more. Let Palestine be a free democracy and they are welcome to live in a free society, no apartheid.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
An actual, mutually peaceful solution would be better. Hamas has turned down or broken ceasefire after ceasefire. There is no reason to trust them at this point.
Israel do not want peace and keep expanding illegal settlements to make it impossible to have a two state solution. Israel never stop killing Palestinians even before Hamas was ever created. As long as there is occupation you can’t expect the oppressed to not take vengeance
Hamas has turned down or broken ceasefire after ceasefire.
Stop consuming Israeli propaganda. Seriously, at this point you’re just embarasing yourself. For further reading see the 2008 and the 2012 ceasefire deals, which Israel actively refused to abide by.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
Id rather they be tried and convicted like we did to the Nazis at the Nuremeberg trials, but I’ll settle for them leaving, sure. Why must the Palestinians accept their presence when their entire presence was on the mass displacement and genocide of their people? They’re not even sorry for any of it, they’re literally doubling down on it all and continuing it on a scale never seen before.
Why are you so shocked that militia groups were formed to counter an oppressive genocidal colony? Also, keep in mind Israel literally helped prop Hamas up to delegtimize the Palestinians in the eyes of the international community. It just came back to bite them in the ass.
Ethnic Cleansing has always been a cornerstone of Zionism.
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction
that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
Calling the people you dislike “terrorists” to avoid critical thinking about the atrocities (including genocide) of your own side isn’t really the gotcha you think it is.
I’m not sure that there is credible evidence of Iran and its affiliates targeting civilians the same way that the occupation has, their acts all seem to be targeting military installations rather than civilian targets. The occupation primarily targets civilians and civilian infrastructure.
That was a military attack on military targets. It’s hard to know for sure what the actual outcome of that day was though since the occupation prohibits investigations. Certainly there were many civilian deaths, but there isn’t any evidence that suggests they were an intended target or that the majority were even killed by Hamas.
I’m not calling them that on my own. I’m describing them the way multiple other nations have described them - not Israel. You only need to see their actions towards their own population to see why.
Otzma Jehudit is part of the Israeli Government coalition, it consists mainly of internationally wanted terrorists. and you want to bat for these terrorists? the ones who have been preaching the 14 words as a justification for genocide?
Assuming that’s true, that’s one group within the government. Find them, try them, and imprison them. On the other side are three entire genocidal terrorist regimes. Will you side with them? What do you think we should do with them?
we don’t need to fucking find them, they are open, they give speeches about how starving and killing every Palestinian is a moral good on a daily basis. they ARE the government, who’s going to put them in front of a judge and find them guilty, themselves? you are literally supporting a genocidal terrorist regime.
considering that all three of these regimes are not committing genocide at the moment, Iran not even interested in said genocide and the other two only existing because they are a resistance movement against Israel. yes, I think you can make a very compelling case that said one genocidal terrorist regime is worse than the others.
Hezbollah was relatively quiet before the war kicked off, Hamas was supported by the Israeli state under Netanyahu to act as a spoiler towards the PAs attempt at a diplomatic 2-state solution, and Israel has been in power for the past 70 years. Hamas and Hezbollah literally only exist because Israel is an expansionist apartheid state.
Getting the hell out of all 67 occupied land
Dislocating over 9 million people is no small feat. Where would they go? Or should they just lay down and die?
They said leave all 1967 occupied areas.
You responded with the entire population of Israel.
And I later asked how this will appease all these other actors that just want to wipe Israel off the map. How will that happen?
You mean you assumed facts not in evidence.
Does that make Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas any more likely to establish lasting peace with Israel if they surrender a tiny sliver of land?
If Israel de-occupies Palestinian and Lebanese land, stops blockading Gaza, stops blowing up chunks of it’s neighbors, then it removes any moral grounds for them to continue fighting Israel. Instead we’re to believe Israel is the defender when they’ve occupied their neighbors for 50+ years.
What percentage of these attacks on Israel is justified to you? Particularly the ones involving killing civilians.
All of them. If you want to compare killing civilians there’s a graphic around here showing that Israel has killed far more, every year. Of course I wish they’d target active military and civilians involved specifically in Israel’s MIC. But if Israel’s strikes on hospitals are justified then so are the ones you’re worried about. You can’t have it both ways.
They don’t have to go anywhere. They just don’t get a religious ethnostate any more. Let Palestine be a free democracy and they are welcome to live in a free society, no apartheid.
Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas want to kill them all, though.
Read again I said the land colonized after 67 so the israelis aren’t moving anywhere
Oh, you mean this? If they’re such filthy colonizers, how is that going to change the situation enough to stop the violence?
All the post 67 land are considered occupied why Palestinians should give up their land?
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
It is but most of us are not heartless people who would like to kick out 8 millions people
An actual, mutually peaceful solution would be better. Hamas has turned down or broken ceasefire after ceasefire. There is no reason to trust them at this point.
Israel do not want peace and keep expanding illegal settlements to make it impossible to have a two state solution. Israel never stop killing Palestinians even before Hamas was ever created. As long as there is occupation you can’t expect the oppressed to not take vengeance
Stop consuming Israeli propaganda. Seriously, at this point you’re just embarasing yourself. For further reading see the 2008 and the 2012 ceasefire deals, which Israel actively refused to abide by.
Because they’ll stop being filthy colonizers.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
It is.
So, should they all just leave or die? Or will handing over a tiny sliver of land magically appease Hezbollah, which insists that Israel must be destroyed, Hamas, which was founded with the goal of destroying Israel,, and Iran, which wants to completely erase Israel?
Id rather they be tried and convicted like we did to the Nazis at the Nuremeberg trials, but I’ll settle for them leaving, sure. Why must the Palestinians accept their presence when their entire presence was on the mass displacement and genocide of their people? They’re not even sorry for any of it, they’re literally doubling down on it all and continuing it on a scale never seen before.
Why are you so shocked that militia groups were formed to counter an oppressive genocidal colony? Also, keep in mind Israel literally helped prop Hamas up to delegtimize the Palestinians in the eyes of the international community. It just came back to bite them in the ass.
Ethnic Cleansing has always been a cornerstone of Zionism.
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
Apartheid Evidence
Amnesty Report
Human Rights Watch Report
B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Historian Works on the History
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
to be fair, it’s much easier if you just annex and slaughter the fucking browns who are there
Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations, and Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism. Do you want to go to bat for them?
Calling the people you dislike “terrorists” to avoid critical thinking about the atrocities (including genocide) of your own side isn’t really the gotcha you think it is.
Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and Israel are currently acting as terrorist states/groups. That isn’t up for debate, because it’s objective reality.
I’m not sure that there is credible evidence of Iran and its affiliates targeting civilians the same way that the occupation has, their acts all seem to be targeting military installations rather than civilian targets. The occupation primarily targets civilians and civilian infrastructure.
I guess Oct 7 was just a figment of our collective imaginations.
That was a military attack on military targets. It’s hard to know for sure what the actual outcome of that day was though since the occupation prohibits investigations. Certainly there were many civilian deaths, but there isn’t any evidence that suggests they were an intended target or that the majority were even killed by Hamas.
I’m not calling them that on my own. I’m describing them the way multiple other nations have described them - not Israel. You only need to see their actions towards their own population to see why.
Otzma Jehudit is part of the Israeli Government coalition, it consists mainly of internationally wanted terrorists. and you want to bat for these terrorists? the ones who have been preaching the 14 words as a justification for genocide?
Assuming that’s true, that’s one group within the government. Find them, try them, and imprison them. On the other side are three entire genocidal terrorist regimes. Will you side with them? What do you think we should do with them?
we don’t need to fucking find them, they are open, they give speeches about how starving and killing every Palestinian is a moral good on a daily basis. they ARE the government, who’s going to put them in front of a judge and find them guilty, themselves? you are literally supporting a genocidal terrorist regime.
And apparently the other three genocidal terrorist regimes are better than them?
considering that all three of these regimes are not committing genocide at the moment, Iran not even interested in said genocide and the other two only existing because they are a resistance movement against Israel. yes, I think you can make a very compelling case that said one genocidal terrorist regime is worse than the others.
Hezbollah was relatively quiet before the war kicked off, Hamas was supported by the Israeli state under Netanyahu to act as a spoiler towards the PAs attempt at a diplomatic 2-state solution, and Israel has been in power for the past 70 years. Hamas and Hezbollah literally only exist because Israel is an expansionist apartheid state.