But like a weird mix of capitalism and communism where on the one hand everything is shared and centrally controlled and on the other hand nobody’s starving.
I guess they really did go where no one had gone before.
Can you source that 20 million per year starvation under capitalism thing?
This is the same CIA that was putting people in boxes full of bugs to get information out of them?
No some report on adequate calories in the 80s and 90s doesn’t convince me that people don’t starve under communism. If the CIA itself were sitting down with me to discuss this, I’d want to see more than these two documents.
I misspoke, it’s not 20million it’s 9million for specifically hunger. The 20million figure I used here comes from adding in clean water and curable disease. It’s still an extremely basic and charitable figure for the extremely preventable deaths that occur under capitalism.
If the CIA’s own declassified internal documents refuting the cold war propaganda that you are spouting isn’t enough for you then nothing ever will be. You’re repeating the cold war propaganda line, I’m showing you that the CIA’s own documents at the time refute it, because obviously internally you can’t lie to yourselves about the matter even if you are doing propaganda publicly about it. You don’t want to acknowledge or absorb it because it would mean having to self-crit and readjust an ideological position you’re committed to.
This is not uncommon unfortunately. It’s actually gotten significantly worse in the last 5 years or so, like 15 years ago it was just taken as fact by literally everybody that pretty much everything in the cold war was bullshit. But with the rising anti-russia sentiment and obviously the war it’s like literally everything from that period is now just taken as fact. It’s wild. Even the extremely easy to disprove stuff like this.
EDIT: I feel like this user is a bot given how it’s gone and responded so many times below and then mixed up the conversations elsewhere.
This bot spammed 3 different responses to me, then it followed me over to this thread where it made another response that mixes the topic here with the topic there in a way that makes absolutely no sense, and replies to itself as if it is multiple different people having a conversation. It’s a bot.
I think the nationalist brainworms of americans do most of the heavy lifting, combined with the fact liberals are completely without principles. It’s not dissimilar to how they’ll happily use homophobia to attack Republicans or whoever the current international villain is simply because “they’re bad so it’s ok”. This same lack of principles applies to history too, which they will rewrite to suit their nationalist goals at any time with no principles or scruples. The core issue is nationalism. Anyone you can deprogram and change into an internationalist stops all of this.
Okay, hang with me here, I’m gonna try it.
Everyone thinks corporations run America. But that’s a cut-out, the military industrial complex only allows corporations to operate. The military is basically a planned economy/ socialism. Therefore, America is actually Socialist!
Huh. I was hoping for a breakdown of where that famine is happening, or where the WFP gets their numbers from.
Last time I received a list of all the major famines happening “under capitalism” in one of these debates, I was able to point to government interference with the free market in every single case.
I’m sorry I don’t have the sources to back this up, but as far as I can tell famine happens when the government either forcibly destroys farms with bombs, or puts a blockade on food, or puts up a rule saying you can’t sell food, or puts a price cap on food, or distributes free food for a little while destroying the farmers’ incomes.
If I remember I’ll try to find a list of specific famines happening in the world today. I think you will find that the “failures of the market” are actually times the market got shut down by the local government.
The CIA is capable of being wrong. Anyone at the CIA accepting that document at face value, without asking their fellow analysts how they came to those conclusions, is failing to do their job.
Also the CIA is capable of being downright evil as fuck which makes me trust their executive summary even less.
So far you’ve linked to two authorities providing high level conclusions, and no data. You want to talk to me about believing propaganda, but the kinds of sources you believe are super low quality. You seem to think because a big organization makes a claim, that it’s true.
But like a weird mix of capitalism and communism where on the one hand everything is shared and centrally controlled and on the other hand nobody’s starving.
I guess they really did go where no one had gone before.
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85M00363R000601440024-5.pdf
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000498133.pdf
CIA’s own declassified documents a good enough source for you?
I also contest the “nobody’s starving” point you seem to be making. A hundred million people die every 5 years to starvation under capitalism.
Can you source that 20 million per year starvation under capitalism thing?
This is the same CIA that was putting people in boxes full of bugs to get information out of them?
No some report on adequate calories in the 80s and 90s doesn’t convince me that people don’t starve under communism. If the CIA itself were sitting down with me to discuss this, I’d want to see more than these two documents.
I misspoke, it’s not 20million it’s 9million for specifically hunger. The 20million figure I used here comes from adding in clean water and curable disease. It’s still an extremely basic and charitable figure for the extremely preventable deaths that occur under capitalism.
If the CIA’s own declassified internal documents refuting the cold war propaganda that you are spouting isn’t enough for you then nothing ever will be. You’re repeating the cold war propaganda line, I’m showing you that the CIA’s own documents at the time refute it, because obviously internally you can’t lie to yourselves about the matter even if you are doing propaganda publicly about it. You don’t want to acknowledge or absorb it because it would mean having to self-crit and readjust an ideological position you’re committed to.
Impressive, they just horse-shoed their own confirmation bias. It’s like shooting a rubber band back at your face. Most impressive.
This is not uncommon unfortunately. It’s actually gotten significantly worse in the last 5 years or so, like 15 years ago it was just taken as fact by literally everybody that pretty much everything in the cold war was bullshit. But with the rising anti-russia sentiment and obviously the war it’s like literally everything from that period is now just taken as fact. It’s wild. Even the extremely easy to disprove stuff like this.
EDIT: I feel like this user is a bot given how it’s gone and responded so many times below and then mixed up the conversations elsewhere.
Would you like me to take a turing test to prove I’m not a bot?
You’re not the same person?
This bot spammed 3 different responses to me, then it followed me over to this thread where it made another response that mixes the topic here with the topic there in a way that makes absolutely no sense, and replies to itself as if it is multiple different people having a conversation. It’s a bot.
https://lemmy.world/comment/1330705
Not to get all conspiratorial, but do you think they start wars to shape narrative? Like, Remember the Cold War? That was great!
I think the nationalist brainworms of americans do most of the heavy lifting, combined with the fact liberals are completely without principles. It’s not dissimilar to how they’ll happily use homophobia to attack Republicans or whoever the current international villain is simply because “they’re bad so it’s ok”. This same lack of principles applies to history too, which they will rewrite to suit their nationalist goals at any time with no principles or scruples. The core issue is nationalism. Anyone you can deprogram and change into an internationalist stops all of this.
Okay, hang with me here, I’m gonna try it. Everyone thinks corporations run America. But that’s a cut-out, the military industrial complex only allows corporations to operate. The military is basically a planned economy/ socialism. Therefore, America is actually Socialist!
For a beautiful second, I was a Liberal… and…. It’s gone.
Huh. I was hoping for a breakdown of where that famine is happening, or where the WFP gets their numbers from.
Last time I received a list of all the major famines happening “under capitalism” in one of these debates, I was able to point to government interference with the free market in every single case.
I’m sorry I don’t have the sources to back this up, but as far as I can tell famine happens when the government either forcibly destroys farms with bombs, or puts a blockade on food, or puts up a rule saying you can’t sell food, or puts a price cap on food, or distributes free food for a little while destroying the farmers’ incomes.
If I remember I’ll try to find a list of specific famines happening in the world today. I think you will find that the “failures of the market” are actually times the market got shut down by the local government.
Governments interfering under capitalism is still capitalism. Dimwit.
The CIA is capable of being wrong. Anyone at the CIA accepting that document at face value, without asking their fellow analysts how they came to those conclusions, is failing to do their job.
Also the CIA is capable of being downright evil as fuck which makes me trust their executive summary even less.
So far you’ve linked to two authorities providing high level conclusions, and no data. You want to talk to me about believing propaganda, but the kinds of sources you believe are super low quality. You seem to think because a big organization makes a claim, that it’s true.
The second one is literally a paper that explains exactly how it comes to those conclusions. You’re just demonstrating that you haven’t read it.