I spent a year there around the turn of the century. It was a completely different country, with similar problems and hope (despite fatalism) as Ukraine and a fledgling, but existing, civil society, before Putin nipped it in the bud. I can’t forget that country. (which happens to include Zemfira’s first album).
Yes, among that is also people being, for lack of better term, confused about why Ukraine would institute quotas for Ukrainian-language songs on the radio. But the difference between that and sanity is so much smaller than between that and what’s going down now that I cannot declare all Russian culture to be fundamentally fucked. Moscow’s attitude and governance is what’s fundamentally fucked.
Maybe you should ask the defenders on the frontlines how they dare speak the language of the enemy. Accuse them of war crimes based on nothing but that. Go ahead, I’m waiting.
I see the champagne bottle element of russian culture made you take a back step to your petty sarcasm?
Your attitude is what enables Putin specifically and near universal support for genocidal imperialism among russians.
Even before putin, the russians killed 50 thousand Chechen civilians when they put down their independence movement. A comparable figure would be ~7 million russian civilian casualties. And you talk about Zemifra albums. The reality is that you value the lives of russians more than the lives of the people they kill (even that may not be your intent).
And of course you blame solely putin (“putin nipped it in the bud”) for the decline of russian civil society. Even though the russians re-elected putin in 2004 (in an election generally considered free and fair) after he shut down all independent mass media. Russians are responsible for the collapse of civil society. Don’t infantalize them, they are not children.
Keed in mind, I lived in russia for a decade, coincidentally around the time you were there. And I did actually enjoy the first Zemfira album when it came out. But unlike you I was cognizant that russians were showing a lack of humanity in their attitude towards Chechens and that even liberal minded were show a worrying level of support for an authoritarian KGB goon.
No where did I say russian (or Bengali or Farsi or any language) cannot be used in private. Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine, Ukraine has its own heroes and great people of culture.
But unlike you I was cognizant that russians were showing a lack of humanity in their attitude towards Chechens and that even liberal minded were show a worrying level of support for an authoritarian KGB goon.
I saw the fear in people’s eyes when they were thinking of conscription. During peace time. Back then noone knew that Putin had orchestrated the apartment building bombings. Back then Putin was a president who wasn’t a drunk. You know the Russian fatalism, they were imagining eternal 90s before Putin and, in the beginning, he actually delivered on getting the economy in shape. In short: The Russian people were bribed, and their hopes betrayed. Now they’re back deep in their fatalism, created by 500 years of Tsars.
Back in the days, I called Putin a Tsar. He still has the same “I’m the smartest person in the room and am now explaining very basic stuff to you” attitude he had back then. Russians didn’t have an eye for spotting such things, how can you tell a terrible politician from another type of terrible politician if you’ve never ever seen an at least half-way decent one. And btw during the first presidential elections he won “against everyone” was still an option, and it got a ton of votes.
Yes, the Russian people, collectively, fucked up. That doesn’t mean that everything about their culture led them there. Americans, too, fuck up constantly, and it’s not BBQ that’s the reason. Germany really fucked up and it wasn’t about whole-grain bread. Noone is cancelling Kant over Hitler and nations we invaded back then now listen to Rammstein.
What I’m advocating against is blanket judgement. That would be the enemy’s mode of thinking winning. You’re better off telling Russian liberals why their shit isn’t sufficient, until they learn to see for themselves.
No where did I say russian (or Bengali or Farsi or any language) cannot be used in private. Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine, Ukraine has its own heroes and great people of culture.
Soyou suppose that the defenders on the front should defend the front in private? Like, not talk to soldiers that are not family members? Have you any idea how large a percentage of the Ukrainian army operates in Russian?
Yes, Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine. Everyone is learning it in school. It is the language used in politics. Ukraine also has 17 recognised minority languages, Russian is one of them. Ukrainians are European, they’re capable of being multilingual.
You’re just making up more excuses and trying to justify their behaviour (albeit in what seems to be good faith). 1.2 millions russian men have directly taken part in the fullscale invasion of Ukraine and 75%+ were not conscripted. And you ignore this.
I will admit what you position as blanket judgment is not a good thing. But it’s also not a good thing to infantilize a group of people and treat them like children. The russian “liberals” need to be treated based on their actions and it’s up to them to make the right calls.
The issue isn’t about putin acting like a Tsar. The issue is about a large majority enabling and supporting a tsar. Ignoring this is not doing anyone any favours.
I won’t get into the discussion on russian (or any other) language in Ukraine. I am talking fighting against russian genocidal imperialism. This is a completely different topic (if you want to actually look at it from a real perspective). And yet you make a point to ignore it.
If you have a country/polity/group of people that keep making exclusively bad decisions, at every single historical point possible. It is reasonable to have a sober outlook while not “essentializaing” them. Let their choices and actions reflect who they are. It’s all up to them.
1.2 millions russian men have directly taken part in the fullscale invasion of Ukraine and 75%+ were not conscripted. And you ignore this.
I’m not ignoring it I’m asking what it has to do with Korobeiniki.
I won’t get into the discussion on russian (or any other) language in Ukraine.
And yet you did. That is the reason why I’m pushing back so hard. Why you care if Vadja from Kharkiv, in Russian AF Kharkiv, hums Korobeiniki while reminiscing about sniping Moskals.
I am talking fighting against russian genocidal imperialism.
Of which, so far, Russian-speaking Ukrainians were actually the primary victims because that’s where the Russians attacked. And now you want to tell them what language to speak. Many are already switching over, not all of them speak passable Ukrainian, and I think it’s fair to say that it’s ok to prioritise fighting against Russia over learning Ukrainian, right now. It will be up to them how to deal with the thing in the long term, not up to some random guy from Lviv or wherever.
Russian civil society and imperial attitude is fucked, yes. Does the same apply to Mongolia? If the Mongols changed, why not the Russians? Will they stop singing Korobeiniki when they do? Pretty much every single Russian who’s not actively Z hates Russia right now, even if they can’t admit it to themselves. You can take that as an opportunity to educate, or you can increase the amount of prejudice in the world.
You’re interpretation of the language component of modern Ukraine aids russian genocidal imperialism. There is no issue with private use of russian language. I actually live here and I speak russian with my family and many of my friends (including folks from Kharkiv). Don’t be coy with me.
I brought up the 1.2 million russian men who participated in the full scale invasion of Ukraine to show that your musings about russians being afraid of conscription in the late 90s is BS. You’re making up excuses and whitewashing russian crimes. Helping them play the vicitm. It’s always someone else’s fault or there is some excuse.
Where did I say that there is something inherent (essential) about russians that makes them act this way? Why would I even say this? This would be another excuse. Russians have the full capability to build out a normal society and even pay for the wrongs of their genocidal imperialism. They choose not to. They are welcome to prove me wrong.
Pretty much every single Russian who’s not actively Z hates Russia right now, even if they can’t admit it to themselves.
You’re either very naive or you’re being malicious. Show me an example of a russian “who is not actively Z” (and not hated by 99.99% of the population) showing any measure of nuance on their genocide of the Chechens in the 90s. An appreciation that comparable civilian causalities would be 7 million russians dead would be great.
You can take that as an opportunity to educate, or you can increase the amount of prejudice in the world.
And what do you mean by an opportunity to educate? What is your expected outcome from this alleged “education” and when (specific date) to you expect to see a result? Or is this just a meaningless platitude?
Asking people to respect facts is not prejudice. Pointing out that you (and many others) are whitewashing and enabling russian crimes is not prejudice. Rejecting infantalization of russian society and treating them like adults who should take responsibility for their actions is not prejudice.
There is no issue with private use of russian language.
So once you’re out on the street you can’t talk Russian any more? If you’re in a trench, holding the frontline, with other Russian speakers, you can’t speak Russian?
to show that your musings about russians being afraid of conscription in the late 90s is BS.
I saw the fear in people’s eyes. It’s not like Dedovshchina was a state secret. The reason Moscow had it relatively easy to recruit people so far is that there’s a lot of very, very poor Russians, and they’re offering them lots of money. Those also aren’t the best-informed Russians. They’re by now also mostly dead, one of the reasons why I don’t think the war will make it through the year.
Where did I say that there is something inherent (essential) about russians that makes them act this way?
Two factors, mostly: Your constant unwillingness to say stuff like “Yeah that aspect of Russian culture is actually neat”, instead going for “but have you heard of their torture methods”, and your insistence on eradicating Russian from Ukraine anywhere that’s not a private kitchen table.
You’re either very naive or you’re being malicious. Show me an example of a russian “who is not actively Z” (and not hated by 99.99% of the population) showing any measure of nuance on their genocide of the Chechens in the 90s
That’s a rather specific thing to demand, and also not what I was getting at. Those people hate the lack of freedom in the country. They might still be caught in “People on the top know better I’ll better not think about politics much less talk about it that only gets me into trouble”, but they certainly don’t appreciate Putin’s breach of the social contract: “The Tsar gets to rule, in exchange the Tsar will stay out of people’s lives”. They’re not happy about the situation, but lack political conscience to analyse the situation, much less do something about it. General discontent without means to express it. Just as in Soviet times. Just as in Tsarist times. It was different around the millennium, very different.
You might want to ask e.g. NFKRZ, I bet he has quite a couple of choice words regarding Chechnya, I think the first time I heard that Putin orchestrated the 1999 bombings was from him. I don’t think he’s hated by 99.99% of Russians, though there’s doubtless a majority who are scared to even listen to people like him. In many cases because they would agree, and that’s dangerous.
And what do you mean by an opportunity to educate? What is your expected outcome from this alleged “education” and when (specific date) to you expect to see a result? Or is this just a meaningless platitude?
Wrong question. The question is “what does either approach do to you”. I don’t believe I’ll see utopia in my lifetime, but at least I’ll be able to say that I walked in the right direction.
Pointing out that you (and many others) are whitewashing and enabling russian crimes is not prejudice.
What crime, specifically, am I whitewashing or enabling? Speaking Russian in public in Kharkiv?
Rejecting infantalization of russian society and treating them like adults who should take responsibility for their actions is not prejudice.
You don’t need to be a child to be fooled, or scared. Which is where education comes in, which you deny them. Don’t get me wrong I’m not demanding that you do it – if you don’t find it in you, if it’s too painful, then don’t. Just don’t argue against it.
I spent a year there around the turn of the century. It was a completely different country, with similar problems and hope (despite fatalism) as Ukraine and a fledgling, but existing, civil society, before Putin nipped it in the bud. I can’t forget that country. (which happens to include Zemfira’s first album).
Yes, among that is also people being, for lack of better term, confused about why Ukraine would institute quotas for Ukrainian-language songs on the radio. But the difference between that and sanity is so much smaller than between that and what’s going down now that I cannot declare all Russian culture to be fundamentally fucked. Moscow’s attitude and governance is what’s fundamentally fucked.
Maybe you should ask the defenders on the frontlines how they dare speak the language of the enemy. Accuse them of war crimes based on nothing but that. Go ahead, I’m waiting.
I see the champagne bottle element of russian culture made you take a back step to your petty sarcasm?
Your attitude is what enables Putin specifically and near universal support for genocidal imperialism among russians.
Even before putin, the russians killed 50 thousand Chechen civilians when they put down their independence movement. A comparable figure would be ~7 million russian civilian casualties. And you talk about Zemifra albums. The reality is that you value the lives of russians more than the lives of the people they kill (even that may not be your intent).
And of course you blame solely putin (“putin nipped it in the bud”) for the decline of russian civil society. Even though the russians re-elected putin in 2004 (in an election generally considered free and fair) after he shut down all independent mass media. Russians are responsible for the collapse of civil society. Don’t infantalize them, they are not children.
Keed in mind, I lived in russia for a decade, coincidentally around the time you were there. And I did actually enjoy the first Zemfira album when it came out. But unlike you I was cognizant that russians were showing a lack of humanity in their attitude towards Chechens and that even liberal minded were show a worrying level of support for an authoritarian KGB goon.
No where did I say russian (or Bengali or Farsi or any language) cannot be used in private. Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine, Ukraine has its own heroes and great people of culture.
Don’t get petty with war crimes you little shit.
I saw the fear in people’s eyes when they were thinking of conscription. During peace time. Back then noone knew that Putin had orchestrated the apartment building bombings. Back then Putin was a president who wasn’t a drunk. You know the Russian fatalism, they were imagining eternal 90s before Putin and, in the beginning, he actually delivered on getting the economy in shape. In short: The Russian people were bribed, and their hopes betrayed. Now they’re back deep in their fatalism, created by 500 years of Tsars.
Back in the days, I called Putin a Tsar. He still has the same “I’m the smartest person in the room and am now explaining very basic stuff to you” attitude he had back then. Russians didn’t have an eye for spotting such things, how can you tell a terrible politician from another type of terrible politician if you’ve never ever seen an at least half-way decent one. And btw during the first presidential elections he won “against everyone” was still an option, and it got a ton of votes.
Yes, the Russian people, collectively, fucked up. That doesn’t mean that everything about their culture led them there. Americans, too, fuck up constantly, and it’s not BBQ that’s the reason. Germany really fucked up and it wasn’t about whole-grain bread. Noone is cancelling Kant over Hitler and nations we invaded back then now listen to Rammstein.
What I’m advocating against is blanket judgement. That would be the enemy’s mode of thinking winning. You’re better off telling Russian liberals why their shit isn’t sufficient, until they learn to see for themselves.
Soyou suppose that the defenders on the front should defend the front in private? Like, not talk to soldiers that are not family members? Have you any idea how large a percentage of the Ukrainian army operates in Russian?
Yes, Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine. Everyone is learning it in school. It is the language used in politics. Ukraine also has 17 recognised minority languages, Russian is one of them. Ukrainians are European, they’re capable of being multilingual.
You’re just making up more excuses and trying to justify their behaviour (albeit in what seems to be good faith). 1.2 millions russian men have directly taken part in the fullscale invasion of Ukraine and 75%+ were not conscripted. And you ignore this.
I will admit what you position as blanket judgment is not a good thing. But it’s also not a good thing to infantilize a group of people and treat them like children. The russian “liberals” need to be treated based on their actions and it’s up to them to make the right calls.
The issue isn’t about putin acting like a Tsar. The issue is about a large majority enabling and supporting a tsar. Ignoring this is not doing anyone any favours.
I won’t get into the discussion on russian (or any other) language in Ukraine. I am talking fighting against russian genocidal imperialism. This is a completely different topic (if you want to actually look at it from a real perspective). And yet you make a point to ignore it.
If you have a country/polity/group of people that keep making exclusively bad decisions, at every single historical point possible. It is reasonable to have a sober outlook while not “essentializaing” them. Let their choices and actions reflect who they are. It’s all up to them.
I’m not ignoring it I’m asking what it has to do with Korobeiniki.
And yet you did. That is the reason why I’m pushing back so hard. Why you care if Vadja from Kharkiv, in Russian AF Kharkiv, hums Korobeiniki while reminiscing about sniping Moskals.
Of which, so far, Russian-speaking Ukrainians were actually the primary victims because that’s where the Russians attacked. And now you want to tell them what language to speak. Many are already switching over, not all of them speak passable Ukrainian, and I think it’s fair to say that it’s ok to prioritise fighting against Russia over learning Ukrainian, right now. It will be up to them how to deal with the thing in the long term, not up to some random guy from Lviv or wherever.
Russian civil society and imperial attitude is fucked, yes. Does the same apply to Mongolia? If the Mongols changed, why not the Russians? Will they stop singing Korobeiniki when they do? Pretty much every single Russian who’s not actively Z hates Russia right now, even if they can’t admit it to themselves. You can take that as an opportunity to educate, or you can increase the amount of prejudice in the world.
You’re interpretation of the language component of modern Ukraine aids russian genocidal imperialism. There is no issue with private use of russian language. I actually live here and I speak russian with my family and many of my friends (including folks from Kharkiv). Don’t be coy with me.
I brought up the 1.2 million russian men who participated in the full scale invasion of Ukraine to show that your musings about russians being afraid of conscription in the late 90s is BS. You’re making up excuses and whitewashing russian crimes. Helping them play the vicitm. It’s always someone else’s fault or there is some excuse.
Where did I say that there is something inherent (essential) about russians that makes them act this way? Why would I even say this? This would be another excuse. Russians have the full capability to build out a normal society and even pay for the wrongs of their genocidal imperialism. They choose not to. They are welcome to prove me wrong.
You’re either very naive or you’re being malicious. Show me an example of a russian “who is not actively Z” (and not hated by 99.99% of the population) showing any measure of nuance on their genocide of the Chechens in the 90s. An appreciation that comparable civilian causalities would be 7 million russians dead would be great.
And what do you mean by an opportunity to educate? What is your expected outcome from this alleged “education” and when (specific date) to you expect to see a result? Or is this just a meaningless platitude?
Asking people to respect facts is not prejudice. Pointing out that you (and many others) are whitewashing and enabling russian crimes is not prejudice. Rejecting infantalization of russian society and treating them like adults who should take responsibility for their actions is not prejudice.
So once you’re out on the street you can’t talk Russian any more? If you’re in a trench, holding the frontline, with other Russian speakers, you can’t speak Russian?
I saw the fear in people’s eyes. It’s not like Dedovshchina was a state secret. The reason Moscow had it relatively easy to recruit people so far is that there’s a lot of very, very poor Russians, and they’re offering them lots of money. Those also aren’t the best-informed Russians. They’re by now also mostly dead, one of the reasons why I don’t think the war will make it through the year.
Two factors, mostly: Your constant unwillingness to say stuff like “Yeah that aspect of Russian culture is actually neat”, instead going for “but have you heard of their torture methods”, and your insistence on eradicating Russian from Ukraine anywhere that’s not a private kitchen table.
That’s a rather specific thing to demand, and also not what I was getting at. Those people hate the lack of freedom in the country. They might still be caught in “People on the top know better I’ll better not think about politics much less talk about it that only gets me into trouble”, but they certainly don’t appreciate Putin’s breach of the social contract: “The Tsar gets to rule, in exchange the Tsar will stay out of people’s lives”. They’re not happy about the situation, but lack political conscience to analyse the situation, much less do something about it. General discontent without means to express it. Just as in Soviet times. Just as in Tsarist times. It was different around the millennium, very different.
You might want to ask e.g. NFKRZ, I bet he has quite a couple of choice words regarding Chechnya, I think the first time I heard that Putin orchestrated the 1999 bombings was from him. I don’t think he’s hated by 99.99% of Russians, though there’s doubtless a majority who are scared to even listen to people like him. In many cases because they would agree, and that’s dangerous.
Wrong question. The question is “what does either approach do to you”. I don’t believe I’ll see utopia in my lifetime, but at least I’ll be able to say that I walked in the right direction.
What crime, specifically, am I whitewashing or enabling? Speaking Russian in public in Kharkiv?
You don’t need to be a child to be fooled, or scared. Which is where education comes in, which you deny them. Don’t get me wrong I’m not demanding that you do it – if you don’t find it in you, if it’s too painful, then don’t. Just don’t argue against it.