I don’t have the data, but in HCOL areas a six digit salary doesn’t go that far. And the real point is how much downward pressure does it put on compensation for Americans who do have job mobility? How does the pay between these two population compare and change over time?
The H1B system makes it functionally impossible to change jobs, and employers can take advantage of that by depressing wages, worsening working conditions, and laying off other staff. Employers hold all the power in that relationship.
Six digits is “only” average in San Francisco, and well above average almost everywhere else. I’d say that being the average resident of an extremely expensive place to live in the USA is nowhere near “low-wage indentured servant”.
Also, H1B holders can change jobs, as long as the new job gets them a new H1B. That makes it harder for them to change jobs than it is for Americans, but many tech companies are willing to get that visa for someone talented.
Edit: They also always have the option of leaving the USA and going back to their home country. They don’t gain anything from Sanders’ proposal - they just lose the option of coming to the USA in the first place, which is an option they really want to have. What Musk is proposing is clearly better for them, so Sanders shouldn’t wrap his opposition in false claims of looking out for the poor foreigners who might get those awful American jobs unless he stops them.
I know multiple people here on H1B visas, and guess what, I left the job I was in over horrible working condition, and 6 years later, they are all still there bcz they can’t get another job willing to sponsor their visa.
My dad came to America on this visa and then got a green card. Now our whole family are citizens. If he wasn’t able to do that, I’d be sitting in a bunker somewhere in Eastern Ukraine after getting drafted
I know multiple people here on H1B visas too. They do have difficulties that Americans do not, but they would still much rather be in the USA than go back to their home countries. How would taking away that option to be in the USA (which they really want) help these people?
If Sanders gets his way and denies H1B visas to people who would have gotten them under Musk’s proposal, then Sanders is taking away the option of coming to the USA that those people would have had. That’s (1) an option no one is forcing them to take, (2) an option that they really want, and (3) an option that they can change their mind about at any time. An indentured servant is someone who doesn’t have the option of leaving. You can’t make someone indentured by giving them more options.
Surely you would support expanding the H1B so that it’s easier for H1B workers to change jobs then, right? Let them come, but also nuetralize any options for corporations to abuse the H1B system. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
Yes, I would support that. I think that simply making H1B visas easier to get will reduce the extent of the problem (since getting a new H1B at a new job would be easier too) but I would also support additional measures specifically to address it.
How would you address the already over-burdened immigration system to deal with the influx of new H1B visas? What kind of specific measures would you propose to keep corporations from abusing H1B workers?
I think that simply making H1B visas easier to get will reduce the extent of the problem
Fuck that. They should be abolished completely. There are tons of Americans who can do those jobs. Businesses do not need to have government bailouts via the immigration system.
If the price for people coming on H1B visas is not hiring or eliminating a domestic job which commands a higher salary then we have a problem. As far as I’m aware H1B typically make less than domestic. It could be 7 figures and it’s still a problem because domestic might be 8 figures. The problem is that workers generate this value and a significant chunk goes towards the top when H1B gets less than domestic. In fact this effect is more significant in higher paying jobs than lower. It should cost the same or more than domestic to hire H1B and an H1B employee should be able to have the same worker rights as domestic. Then H1B doesn’t drive domestic salaries and hiring down.
t should cost the same or more than domestic to hire H1B and an H1B employee should be able to have the same worker rights as domestic.
There should be a 50k tax per H1-B worker. That would cut out the bullshit ensure that only workers who actually have needed skills are hired, rather than using foreign labor to lower American wages. I’m pretty sure that companies would suddenly “realize” they don’t really need very many foreign workers.
And if companies are found to abuse the system by putting shame job openings, (which they constantly do) they should pay a penalty and be banned from using the H1-B system.
I’m not arguing against the claim that H1B holders take jobs that Americans might have otherwise had. I have moral objections to it, but it isn’t objectively false the way that Bernie’s claim is.
I don’t have the data, but in HCOL areas a six digit salary doesn’t go that far. And the real point is how much downward pressure does it put on compensation for Americans who do have job mobility? How does the pay between these two population compare and change over time?
The H1B system makes it functionally impossible to change jobs, and employers can take advantage of that by depressing wages, worsening working conditions, and laying off other staff. Employers hold all the power in that relationship.
Six digits is “only” average in San Francisco, and well above average almost everywhere else. I’d say that being the average resident of an extremely expensive place to live in the USA is nowhere near “low-wage indentured servant”.
Also, H1B holders can change jobs, as long as the new job gets them a new H1B. That makes it harder for them to change jobs than it is for Americans, but many tech companies are willing to get that visa for someone talented.
Edit: They also always have the option of leaving the USA and going back to their home country. They don’t gain anything from Sanders’ proposal - they just lose the option of coming to the USA in the first place, which is an option they really want to have. What Musk is proposing is clearly better for them, so Sanders shouldn’t wrap his opposition in false claims of looking out for the poor foreigners who might get those awful American jobs unless he stops them.
I know multiple people here on H1B visas, and guess what, I left the job I was in over horrible working condition, and 6 years later, they are all still there bcz they can’t get another job willing to sponsor their visa.
My dad came to America on this visa and then got a green card. Now our whole family are citizens. If he wasn’t able to do that, I’d be sitting in a bunker somewhere in Eastern Ukraine after getting drafted
I know multiple people here on H1B visas too. They do have difficulties that Americans do not, but they would still much rather be in the USA than go back to their home countries. How would taking away that option to be in the USA (which they really want) help these people?
Who said anything about taking it away? They point is that the comment about it being borderline indentured servitude is accurate.
If Sanders gets his way and denies H1B visas to people who would have gotten them under Musk’s proposal, then Sanders is taking away the option of coming to the USA that those people would have had. That’s (1) an option no one is forcing them to take, (2) an option that they really want, and (3) an option that they can change their mind about at any time. An indentured servant is someone who doesn’t have the option of leaving. You can’t make someone indentured by giving them more options.
Surely you would support expanding the H1B so that it’s easier for H1B workers to change jobs then, right? Let them come, but also nuetralize any options for corporations to abuse the H1B system. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
Yes, I would support that. I think that simply making H1B visas easier to get will reduce the extent of the problem (since getting a new H1B at a new job would be easier too) but I would also support additional measures specifically to address it.
How would you address the already over-burdened immigration system to deal with the influx of new H1B visas? What kind of specific measures would you propose to keep corporations from abusing H1B workers?
Fuck that. They should be abolished completely. There are tons of Americans who can do those jobs. Businesses do not need to have government bailouts via the immigration system.
If the price for people coming on H1B visas is not hiring or eliminating a domestic job which commands a higher salary then we have a problem. As far as I’m aware H1B typically make less than domestic. It could be 7 figures and it’s still a problem because domestic might be 8 figures. The problem is that workers generate this value and a significant chunk goes towards the top when H1B gets less than domestic. In fact this effect is more significant in higher paying jobs than lower. It should cost the same or more than domestic to hire H1B and an H1B employee should be able to have the same worker rights as domestic. Then H1B doesn’t drive domestic salaries and hiring down.
There should be a 50k tax per H1-B worker. That would cut out the bullshit ensure that only workers who actually have needed skills are hired, rather than using foreign labor to lower American wages. I’m pretty sure that companies would suddenly “realize” they don’t really need very many foreign workers.
And if companies are found to abuse the system by putting shame job openings, (which they constantly do) they should pay a penalty and be banned from using the H1-B system.
I’m not arguing against the claim that H1B holders take jobs that Americans might have otherwise had. I have moral objections to it, but it isn’t objectively false the way that Bernie’s claim is.