Fair enough, I can accept that. We live in a reality where you cannot have free will and only good at the same time. I can’t imagine anything different so I can’t follow you in that line of thinking, and since no such reality does exist it’s a moot point
Okay, but then why are you claiming your god to be all-powerful? Why do you bind him (and the discussion) by the rules we live by, which he created?
So following your analogy of abusers, if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, gives you the free will to follow it or not, and you don’t, did they abuse you?
No? But if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, and makes someone rape me if I don’t follow it, they did abuse me. That’s the situation here - rapists wouldn’t exist if your god didn’t create the concept of rape. God knew when creating everything that this specific person would specifically rape me because I will choose not to follow gods recommendation. He could have chosen to create the universe so this doesn’t happen, but he didn’t even though he knew.
I get what you’re saying but going back to the first point, this is the only reality we live in. Do you have any response that doesn’t involve rejecting our reality? Can we say based on our current reality the freedom to do evil was necessary for goodness?
Again, why are you binding your all-powerful god by the same rules we live by, when he created the rules?
I’m also not convinced that evil must be possible for free will to exist. God didn’t give us all of his powers - does that mean we don’t have free will? If you can still have free will while being bound to a smaller subsection of choices, we can still have free will while only good is possible, it’s just a matter of degrees.
None of the positive things we’ve made as humans would have been possible without free thought, not electricity not the internet not architecture. If you want to imagine such a reality where this is possible without the capacity for evil then you’re welcome to but it doesn’t exist, so it serves nothing but avoiding the question
If this is indeed true, your god is the reason this reality doesn’t exist, so why can’t I make this logical connection?
So follow that train of thought then, what is the inverse? What are the good things that show god can be good, stack them up against the evil things that show god can be evil (real madadam hours here)
There is no inverse. You can’t show that your god is all good if he created evil. That’s the very center of our disagreement: you claim your god to be all-loving, I claim that he can’t be since he created evil. Your position only works if you follow the abuser logic, or if you break the logic at some point. And breaking the logic is totally fine! That’s what faith is in the end - the belief that something exists beyond our purview and logic. If your god truly exists (and I sincerely hope for you he does, that would be amazing!), he doesn’t have to be bound by our logic. But personally I think it does mean you shouldn’t claim the argument to be debunked :)
How does heaven and hell factor into the equation? Would you accept that on the day of judgement and a neutral observer rewards the good and punishes the evil and subsequently allows only good onwards then god will be all good in your eyes?
No, because he still created evil. I don’t care if child rapists are punished, it doesn’t un-rape the children they raped. God still created the universe knowing these children would be raped. This is an offense that IMO can’t be corrected.
Okay, but then why are you claiming your god to be all-powerful? Why do you bind him (and the discussion) by the rules we live by, which he created?
No? But if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, and makes someone rape me if I don’t follow it, they did abuse me. That’s the situation here - rapists wouldn’t exist if your god didn’t create the concept of rape. God knew when creating everything that this specific person would specifically rape me because I will choose not to follow gods recommendation. He could have chosen to create the universe so this doesn’t happen, but he didn’t even though he knew.
Again, why are you binding your all-powerful god by the same rules we live by, when he created the rules?
I’m also not convinced that evil must be possible for free will to exist. God didn’t give us all of his powers - does that mean we don’t have free will? If you can still have free will while being bound to a smaller subsection of choices, we can still have free will while only good is possible, it’s just a matter of degrees.
If this is indeed true, your god is the reason this reality doesn’t exist, so why can’t I make this logical connection?
There is no inverse. You can’t show that your god is all good if he created evil. That’s the very center of our disagreement: you claim your god to be all-loving, I claim that he can’t be since he created evil. Your position only works if you follow the abuser logic, or if you break the logic at some point. And breaking the logic is totally fine! That’s what faith is in the end - the belief that something exists beyond our purview and logic. If your god truly exists (and I sincerely hope for you he does, that would be amazing!), he doesn’t have to be bound by our logic. But personally I think it does mean you shouldn’t claim the argument to be debunked :)
No, because he still created evil. I don’t care if child rapists are punished, it doesn’t un-rape the children they raped. God still created the universe knowing these children would be raped. This is an offense that IMO can’t be corrected.