PSL is marxist-leninist in ideology and doing all the activities I described. Perhaps way in the future I will have to fight with them, but for now we align on many issues and work side by side. Don’t allow propaganda to paint too broad of strokes.
The moment your interests stop aligning, your friends kill you in your sleep. They want you dead because you don’t 100% agree with their totalitarianism, and if you help their revolution, they’ll betray you for it like every other ML has post-revolution. Run while you still can (not that they’ll ever actually be part of a revolution, but you know what I mean cx)
I know my ML friends quite well. Some of the most loyal people I know. Quite a presumption you make.
Personal loyalty aside from what I’ve seen most people who organize together frequently put a lot of trust in each other creating a bit of a mutually assured destruction scenario that disincentives throwing each other under the bus.
No amount of disincentives is gonna change the fact that the end game of tankies includes killing all counter-revolutionaries (everyone who helped them win the revolution but thinks authoritarianism is bad). No amount of good deeds will make them a leftist. We’re not out here praising catholics just bc they do some charity stuff, why do your murderous “friends” get a pass? Again, history has shown over and over and over again that tankies betray their fellow revolutionaries. Your “friends” are no exception. They’re loyal to eachother and to authoritarianism. To them, you and I are tools to be used and discarded
You’re attaching a lot to labels to be an anarchist (I am too btw). I place my trust in individual humans not projects, and some of those individuals happen to be MLs. They’re not organizing against any cultural or ethnic groups, they do work that impacts their local communities and no global organizing, so I don’t find much issue with them also having some fantasies about what North Korea is up to.
Right now they’re not doing any harm, and I think an armed revolution is unlikely enough they never will, but that’s still their goal. It’s cool they’re doing good things now, but we can’t mistake that for them being good people any more than we would call a nazi a good person for working at a homeless shelter. I’ll take them doing good things, but they’re my enemy, and I’ll treat them as such if they ever gain enough power to actually go after their enemies (comrades with slightly different ideas on how things should be run)
Exactly, right now we organize together because we share the same intuitions about what the right thing to do is in the context of the issues that impact ourselves and our neighbors. Our long term visions currently differ but, as I’m sure you’re familiar with if you’re an anarchist, there’s no blueprint of what needs to be done in the future we will all need to flex with reality and make the best decisions we can (without sacrificing our core values). Sometimes that means losing a friend but as long as we put people over projects I’m confident we won’t turn into tyrants. I’m quite certain my ML friends would abandon the party before turning on me unless I gave up our shared core values which are based on human decency. Most people I know who are anarchists became MLs first just because it’s a more visible ideology. At least in the US, these groups are not that divided.
That’s a good way to look at it :3 I haven’t read a ton of theory or anything and I struggle to think of how those ideological differences won’t lead to bad things or failure, and a lot of tankies want me dead, but so do fascists and liberalism seems really bad at avoiding that so Idk. The thought just scares me considering how much they seem to love Stalin and how many comrades he locked up or killed after the revolution (Lenin might’ve started that Idk, I just know a lot of revolutionaries got punished for not agreeing on how things should be done).
I know not every revolution is so bloody, and for all I know there are MLs who never turned on their comrades, so I’m sorry if I’ve mischaracterized your friends based on the views of their specific group. I get not all MLs are “tankies”, I just struggle to differentiate them sometimes and not feel hate and fear towards them after seeing a lot of tankies cheer on the Russian invasion of Ukraine and deny + justify multiple genocides and brag about how they’ll kill anarchists after the revolution. I literally had an ML “friend” tell me once that if Stalin killing jews was the price of revolution, then that’s what it takes and it’s justified. I know it’s not reasonable of me, but that’s the first kind of thing that pops into my mind whenever someone says they’re an ML
And chances are they very much would be organizing against Uyghurs and Ukrainians if they made a decent percentage of immigrants to whatever country you’re in. It’s a lot easier to act cool and tolerant when you don’t often see people you think are terrorists and nazis
What lmao? The people who you call tankies are aggressively pro union. Find me a “tankie” site that thinks otherwise.
And you would call the PSL tankies. Here’s a Wikipedia excerpt from their page:
International affairs
PSL calls for a 90% cut to the military budget of the United States, the closure of all overseas military bases, and a halt of US aid to Israel.
PSL supports the Worker’s Party of North Korea. PSL describes North Korea as a “communist government” and North Korea as “one of the few top-to-bottom, actually-existing, alternatives to the global capitalist system”. PSL has defended North Korea’s human rights record against criticism by the United Nations, which it calls “thinly veiled justification for U.S. aggression toward North Korea”, and argues that “conditions in North Korea are vastly better than those in other developing countries”. PSL supports North Korea’s nuclear weapons program.
PSL supports the Communist Party of China, criticizing only Chinese economic reforms into a “market socialist economy”. PSL argues that “militant political defense of the Chinese government” is necessary to stave off “counterrevolution, imperialist intervention and dismemberment”. PSL defends China’s human rights record, and strongly denies that the People’s Liberation Army massacred peaceful student protestors in the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre. PSL denies that China has suppressed democracy in Hong Kong. PSL has praised the 1950–1951 annexation of Tibet and defended the status of Human Rights in Tibet under the administration of China, claiming that “progress made [since the annexation] has revolutionized life for Tibetans.”
PSL supported the 2014 Russian annexation of Crimea. PSL did not support the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022, but blamed the invasion on NATO and the United States. In its statement on “Russia’s military intervention”, PSL highlighted the “plight of ethnic Russians […] in the Donbas”, Russia’s “legitimate security concerns”, and NATO’s “provocative behavior”.
PSL opposes US intervention in the Syrian Civil War, and has generally been supportive of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, and Russian military efforts in Syria. PSL denies that the Syrian government used chemical weapons.
If someone calls themselves a tankie and they dont understand where the term tankie comes from, theyre either not telling the truth or are not worth talking to hecause they dont understand their own ideology.
Those people dont sound like tankies.
Tankies are authoritarian, and unions are the opposite of that.
PSL is marxist-leninist in ideology and doing all the activities I described. Perhaps way in the future I will have to fight with them, but for now we align on many issues and work side by side. Don’t allow propaganda to paint too broad of strokes.
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The moment your interests stop aligning, your friends kill you in your sleep. They want you dead because you don’t 100% agree with their totalitarianism, and if you help their revolution, they’ll betray you for it like every other ML has post-revolution. Run while you still can (not that they’ll ever actually be part of a revolution, but you know what I mean cx)
I know my ML friends quite well. Some of the most loyal people I know. Quite a presumption you make.
Personal loyalty aside from what I’ve seen most people who organize together frequently put a lot of trust in each other creating a bit of a mutually assured destruction scenario that disincentives throwing each other under the bus.
No amount of disincentives is gonna change the fact that the end game of tankies includes killing all counter-revolutionaries (everyone who helped them win the revolution but thinks authoritarianism is bad). No amount of good deeds will make them a leftist. We’re not out here praising catholics just bc they do some charity stuff, why do your murderous “friends” get a pass? Again, history has shown over and over and over again that tankies betray their fellow revolutionaries. Your “friends” are no exception. They’re loyal to eachother and to authoritarianism. To them, you and I are tools to be used and discarded
You’re attaching a lot to labels to be an anarchist (I am too btw). I place my trust in individual humans not projects, and some of those individuals happen to be MLs. They’re not organizing against any cultural or ethnic groups, they do work that impacts their local communities and no global organizing, so I don’t find much issue with them also having some fantasies about what North Korea is up to.
Right now they’re not doing any harm, and I think an armed revolution is unlikely enough they never will, but that’s still their goal. It’s cool they’re doing good things now, but we can’t mistake that for them being good people any more than we would call a nazi a good person for working at a homeless shelter. I’ll take them doing good things, but they’re my enemy, and I’ll treat them as such if they ever gain enough power to actually go after their enemies (comrades with slightly different ideas on how things should be run)
Exactly, right now we organize together because we share the same intuitions about what the right thing to do is in the context of the issues that impact ourselves and our neighbors. Our long term visions currently differ but, as I’m sure you’re familiar with if you’re an anarchist, there’s no blueprint of what needs to be done in the future we will all need to flex with reality and make the best decisions we can (without sacrificing our core values). Sometimes that means losing a friend but as long as we put people over projects I’m confident we won’t turn into tyrants. I’m quite certain my ML friends would abandon the party before turning on me unless I gave up our shared core values which are based on human decency. Most people I know who are anarchists became MLs first just because it’s a more visible ideology. At least in the US, these groups are not that divided.
That’s a good way to look at it :3 I haven’t read a ton of theory or anything and I struggle to think of how those ideological differences won’t lead to bad things or failure, and a lot of tankies want me dead, but so do fascists and liberalism seems really bad at avoiding that so Idk. The thought just scares me considering how much they seem to love Stalin and how many comrades he locked up or killed after the revolution (Lenin might’ve started that Idk, I just know a lot of revolutionaries got punished for not agreeing on how things should be done).
I know not every revolution is so bloody, and for all I know there are MLs who never turned on their comrades, so I’m sorry if I’ve mischaracterized your friends based on the views of their specific group. I get not all MLs are “tankies”, I just struggle to differentiate them sometimes and not feel hate and fear towards them after seeing a lot of tankies cheer on the Russian invasion of Ukraine and deny + justify multiple genocides and brag about how they’ll kill anarchists after the revolution. I literally had an ML “friend” tell me once that if Stalin killing jews was the price of revolution, then that’s what it takes and it’s justified. I know it’s not reasonable of me, but that’s the first kind of thing that pops into my mind whenever someone says they’re an ML
And chances are they very much would be organizing against Uyghurs and Ukrainians if they made a decent percentage of immigrants to whatever country you’re in. It’s a lot easier to act cool and tolerant when you don’t often see people you think are terrorists and nazis
What lmao? The people who you call tankies are aggressively pro union. Find me a “tankie” site that thinks otherwise.
And you would call the PSL tankies. Here’s a Wikipedia excerpt from their page:
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Oh no, someone fell for tankie memes rather than talking to a tankie and learning what their deal is.
If someone calls themselves a tankie and they dont understand where the term tankie comes from, theyre either not telling the truth or are not worth talking to hecause they dont understand their own ideology.
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