I ask, from a philosophy point of view, that this is a perennial idea.
Generally through history, where this usually goes, is that a defined set of behaviours get classified as “natural”. Cats hunt mice. It’s natural. There are no ethical concerns with a cat hunting a mouse.
Anyways, near the end of the philosophical exercise, people realize that a TON of behaviours which are without any meaningful counterargument “natural” are actually fucking terrible. Theft, murder, rape, etc.
And that’s usually where the wheels come off. We’re animals. We have animal urges. They’re informed by parts of our brains designed for survival in an environment that no longer exists, because humans have crafted our environments into something unrecognizable to what the human animal evolved to exist within.
We’re animals transplanted outside of our evolutionary environment. We can recognize we’re animals for whom our animalistic instinct and urges clearly don’t suit our reality. This is what puts such strain on trying to connect ideas of “natural” and “acceptable” and limits the practical value of any models which try to relate the two.
This isn’t a new idea. I can’t stress enough how old and recurring an idea it is. It just, under careful consideration, is found to be much less useful a model than imagined once the leap from conception to application is made.
Great explanation - I find it does a phenomenal job of explaining a great deal of human behaviour. Resource hoarding despite enough for all, the will to dominate, visceral hatred of those who believe differently than us (ingroup vs. outgroup theory), and I’m sure there’s more.
From a psychological viewpoint, it explains a lot of behavior that isn’t necessarily reasonable unless you account for an irrational mind acting on modern problems - things that our minds weren’t designed to handle.
I agree that from a psychological lens there is value. “Why does a person do or think things?” Valuable there. VERY valuable. Greed, fear, when do they become maladaptive? Why does this happen? Is it intrinsic to some individuals or is it just capacity?
I don’t think it’s very valuable from an ethics/philosophy standpoint. “Is it right to do a thing?”
I don’t think it’s especially valuable from a sociological perspective either, it needlessly complicates a model. For some population, a variance of greed will exis within it. A variance of fear of outsiders.
I don’t mean to shit on the idea. Just suggesting where the limits of value may be on the idea.
Haha no worries I think you make absolutely fair points regarding ethics and philosophy - these topics have to stand outside animalistic origins, as evolution only really asks “but will I survive?” Pausing for rational thought about the propriety of a behavior is unlikely to convey animalistic benefit.
Sociologically (?), on the face of it I think it’s a little harder to extricate animalistic tendencies, as our herd behaviors are intrinsically related to our animalistic/psychological tendency - or maybe better said as they share a reciprocal relationship, feeding back into each other. But that said, I have no knowledge of sociology models so I’ll defer to your assertion.
Either way, I think we’re barking up the same tree with some variation in the importance of different factors, hey?
But like, practically, what does that mean?
I ask, from a philosophy point of view, that this is a perennial idea.
Generally through history, where this usually goes, is that a defined set of behaviours get classified as “natural”. Cats hunt mice. It’s natural. There are no ethical concerns with a cat hunting a mouse.
Anyways, near the end of the philosophical exercise, people realize that a TON of behaviours which are without any meaningful counterargument “natural” are actually fucking terrible. Theft, murder, rape, etc.
And that’s usually where the wheels come off. We’re animals. We have animal urges. They’re informed by parts of our brains designed for survival in an environment that no longer exists, because humans have crafted our environments into something unrecognizable to what the human animal evolved to exist within.
We’re animals transplanted outside of our evolutionary environment. We can recognize we’re animals for whom our animalistic instinct and urges clearly don’t suit our reality. This is what puts such strain on trying to connect ideas of “natural” and “acceptable” and limits the practical value of any models which try to relate the two.
This isn’t a new idea. I can’t stress enough how old and recurring an idea it is. It just, under careful consideration, is found to be much less useful a model than imagined once the leap from conception to application is made.
Well, you have explained it as concisely and clearly as I never EVER could. Thank you.
Great explanation - I find it does a phenomenal job of explaining a great deal of human behaviour. Resource hoarding despite enough for all, the will to dominate, visceral hatred of those who believe differently than us (ingroup vs. outgroup theory), and I’m sure there’s more.
From a psychological viewpoint, it explains a lot of behavior that isn’t necessarily reasonable unless you account for an irrational mind acting on modern problems - things that our minds weren’t designed to handle.
Edit: clarification
I agree that from a psychological lens there is value. “Why does a person do or think things?” Valuable there. VERY valuable. Greed, fear, when do they become maladaptive? Why does this happen? Is it intrinsic to some individuals or is it just capacity?
I don’t think it’s very valuable from an ethics/philosophy standpoint. “Is it right to do a thing?”
I don’t think it’s especially valuable from a sociological perspective either, it needlessly complicates a model. For some population, a variance of greed will exis within it. A variance of fear of outsiders.
I don’t mean to shit on the idea. Just suggesting where the limits of value may be on the idea.
Haha no worries I think you make absolutely fair points regarding ethics and philosophy - these topics have to stand outside animalistic origins, as evolution only really asks “but will I survive?” Pausing for rational thought about the propriety of a behavior is unlikely to convey animalistic benefit.
Sociologically (?), on the face of it I think it’s a little harder to extricate animalistic tendencies, as our herd behaviors are intrinsically related to our animalistic/psychological tendency - or maybe better said as they share a reciprocal relationship, feeding back into each other. But that said, I have no knowledge of sociology models so I’ll defer to your assertion.
Either way, I think we’re barking up the same tree with some variation in the importance of different factors, hey?