Couldn’t agree more. Problem is that as well as selling the idea of the overaggro epic hero, they’re also selling the idea that Men™, particularly those that happened to be born with a certain skin pigment, are under attack by the woke gay agenda.
And a lot of these people easily fell for it, allowed themselves to fall for it. Because some culture war bullshit perpetuated by talentless dickheads on YouTube and Twitter was enough to convince them that gay black trans women are running rampant kidnapping children and secretly brainwashing everyone by use of female superheroes and the occasional indie game that doesn’t treat women like sex objects. So convincing these people that they should just be people is a tall task.
Personally, after more or less a lifetime of dealing with aggressive / ignorant / abusive / authoritarian (or combinations thereof) manly men, my faith in this kind change happening on a large enough scale is pretty low. I actually thought that we had made slow but steady progress since the '90s, but then the next up and coming generation tuned into Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate. Obviously without much persuasion from their older brothers and fathers to look for better role models.
The only hope I have now, is that all of this madness currently happening leads to a massive swing in the opposite direction with more and more people waking up. Honestly, from what I can see, I think women will (and should) be leading the large on progressive views in the future. Because gen z (and probably alpha) male people have actually seemingly done the opposite of progress.
And I’m really sorry for a fifth paragraph. I’m getting a bit carried away because I’ve missed this sort of conversation from Reddit. But to go back to the issue of older brothers and fathers not guiding their children and siblings. I think “not all men” needs to be twisted into “not enough men” because not enough of this silent so called majority have done anything along the way to stop this state of affairs that we’re in now.
Yeah, they’re selling a whole package that revolves around a sense of supremacy and anger.
And in a way it’s a clever little bait and switch that a lot of them are showing. If you look at the tate types they start by showing wealth, attractive women, and all sorts of other things that appeal to immature boys as signs of success and happiness and they more or less say that you can have all this if you give in completely to what bell hooks called psychological castration. Then when they do it and don’t get this life because not only is it a con, but it’s also hoarding of resources (it feels gross to include women in that word, but that is how they see us) and when you hoard resources it prevents most people from having any. And this leads them to incel ideology.
And yeah you’re right. Ultimately this is a hard sell. It’s the emotional equivalent of telling people to eat their vegetables, get a good night’s sleep, and get their cardio in so they stop feeling like shit all the time. And much like in that scenario it sucks until it doesn’t, but I struggle to imagine a path to happiness in what these men are being sold.
As you said, lot of young men need older men leading by example and talking to them explicitly. They need to be told that cleaning their room, learning to take care of themselves, and learning how to give and receive emotional labor in a healthy way are possible and necessary steps on the path to happiness. They need men to tell them the value of finding women they respect. I remember a friend of mine as a teenager got really into Nick Offerman’s book because that was more or less what he was saying. And I also think a lot of men could use healthy support groups.
But yeah, I know a lot of these men are unlikely to listen to me because I’m a woman, and even worse a trans woman. Like I remember when contrapoints was iconic for deradicalizing men from the right, but right wing propaganda shifted to account for it.
Idk I see the people on here acting like the left has no room for straight white cis men, and it frustrates me because I know that a lot of them feel abandoned and rejected, but also we can’t just prioritize them like the right does because we’re asking them to join the rest of us as equals.
And yeah I can’t imagine how pissed off people would get if women started saying “not enough men” about good behavior
Idk I see the people on here acting like the left has no room for straight white cis men, and it frustrates me because I know that a lot of them feel abandoned and rejected, but also we can’t just prioritize them like the right does because we’re asking them to join the rest of us as equals.
This particularly pisses me off, personally. As a white South African that grew up learning about how fucking terrible white people were (and sometimes still are) throughout school, and who didn’t turn into a racist nazi misogynist because of it, these people are full of shit. And weak. And probably not actually good people to begin with if other races and genders being represented or focused on once in a while is such an awful, alienating thing that makes them feel abandoned and rejected.
I’m not sure how to really feel about spoilt brat, first world kiddies that have had everything handed to them and who get 90% of representation in media turning into right wing assholes because video games aren’t giving them as much wanking material anymore. Or because gasp politicians tried to focus on actual marginalized and oppressed groups without giving white men participation trophies too. Poor babies, how awful for them.
To me it’s selfishness. They’re welcome in the left wing. But it’s not a club where we wear stupid red hats, ignore science and objective reality and tell each other how superior we are to everyone else. They had the opportunity to do something right for their mothers and their sisters and their daughters but they didn’t because that would mean doing something good for someone else instead of just whining about how hard life is because Lara Croft’s boobs aren’t big enough. So I’m not sure if they even really want to be left wing.
And yeah I can’t imagine how pissed off people would get if women started saying “not enough men” about good behavior
Yup. And this is why I struggle to see a solution. Because we somehow have to simultaneously guide them or whatever because they’re so sad and fatherless and lost, while also not ever actually mentioning what they’re doing wrong in the first place or else you’re a misandrist feminazi. We’re supposed to tackle the ‘loneliness epidemic’, but tell them that they’re lonely because they listen to Andrew Tate and treat women like shit and once again, you’re a misandrist feminazi. Because they don’t want to actually fix their problems, they just want everyone to tell them there is no problem.
I don’t know. I think my post maybe got more angry and hopeless as it went on because I got a notification of someone calling me a sexist while I was in the middle of typing this. Lol. I wish I knew the solution but feel like I’m trying to reason with toddlers.
Couldn’t agree more. Problem is that as well as selling the idea of the overaggro epic hero, they’re also selling the idea that Men™, particularly those that happened to be born with a certain skin pigment, are under attack by the woke gay agenda.
And a lot of these people easily fell for it, allowed themselves to fall for it. Because some culture war bullshit perpetuated by talentless dickheads on YouTube and Twitter was enough to convince them that gay black trans women are running rampant kidnapping children and secretly brainwashing everyone by use of female superheroes and the occasional indie game that doesn’t treat women like sex objects. So convincing these people that they should just be people is a tall task.
Personally, after more or less a lifetime of dealing with aggressive / ignorant / abusive / authoritarian (or combinations thereof) manly men, my faith in this kind change happening on a large enough scale is pretty low. I actually thought that we had made slow but steady progress since the '90s, but then the next up and coming generation tuned into Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate. Obviously without much persuasion from their older brothers and fathers to look for better role models.
The only hope I have now, is that all of this madness currently happening leads to a massive swing in the opposite direction with more and more people waking up. Honestly, from what I can see, I think women will (and should) be leading the large on progressive views in the future. Because gen z (and probably alpha) male people have actually seemingly done the opposite of progress.
And I’m really sorry for a fifth paragraph. I’m getting a bit carried away because I’ve missed this sort of conversation from Reddit. But to go back to the issue of older brothers and fathers not guiding their children and siblings. I think “not all men” needs to be twisted into “not enough men” because not enough of this silent so called majority have done anything along the way to stop this state of affairs that we’re in now.
Yeah, they’re selling a whole package that revolves around a sense of supremacy and anger.
And in a way it’s a clever little bait and switch that a lot of them are showing. If you look at the tate types they start by showing wealth, attractive women, and all sorts of other things that appeal to immature boys as signs of success and happiness and they more or less say that you can have all this if you give in completely to what bell hooks called psychological castration. Then when they do it and don’t get this life because not only is it a con, but it’s also hoarding of resources (it feels gross to include women in that word, but that is how they see us) and when you hoard resources it prevents most people from having any. And this leads them to incel ideology.
And yeah you’re right. Ultimately this is a hard sell. It’s the emotional equivalent of telling people to eat their vegetables, get a good night’s sleep, and get their cardio in so they stop feeling like shit all the time. And much like in that scenario it sucks until it doesn’t, but I struggle to imagine a path to happiness in what these men are being sold.
As you said, lot of young men need older men leading by example and talking to them explicitly. They need to be told that cleaning their room, learning to take care of themselves, and learning how to give and receive emotional labor in a healthy way are possible and necessary steps on the path to happiness. They need men to tell them the value of finding women they respect. I remember a friend of mine as a teenager got really into Nick Offerman’s book because that was more or less what he was saying. And I also think a lot of men could use healthy support groups.
But yeah, I know a lot of these men are unlikely to listen to me because I’m a woman, and even worse a trans woman. Like I remember when contrapoints was iconic for deradicalizing men from the right, but right wing propaganda shifted to account for it.
Idk I see the people on here acting like the left has no room for straight white cis men, and it frustrates me because I know that a lot of them feel abandoned and rejected, but also we can’t just prioritize them like the right does because we’re asking them to join the rest of us as equals.
And yeah I can’t imagine how pissed off people would get if women started saying “not enough men” about good behavior
This particularly pisses me off, personally. As a white South African that grew up learning about how fucking terrible white people were (and sometimes still are) throughout school, and who didn’t turn into a racist nazi misogynist because of it, these people are full of shit. And weak. And probably not actually good people to begin with if other races and genders being represented or focused on once in a while is such an awful, alienating thing that makes them feel abandoned and rejected.
I’m not sure how to really feel about spoilt brat, first world kiddies that have had everything handed to them and who get 90% of representation in media turning into right wing assholes because video games aren’t giving them as much wanking material anymore. Or because gasp politicians tried to focus on actual marginalized and oppressed groups without giving white men participation trophies too. Poor babies, how awful for them.
To me it’s selfishness. They’re welcome in the left wing. But it’s not a club where we wear stupid red hats, ignore science and objective reality and tell each other how superior we are to everyone else. They had the opportunity to do something right for their mothers and their sisters and their daughters but they didn’t because that would mean doing something good for someone else instead of just whining about how hard life is because Lara Croft’s boobs aren’t big enough. So I’m not sure if they even really want to be left wing.
Yup. And this is why I struggle to see a solution. Because we somehow have to simultaneously guide them or whatever because they’re so sad and fatherless and lost, while also not ever actually mentioning what they’re doing wrong in the first place or else you’re a misandrist feminazi. We’re supposed to tackle the ‘loneliness epidemic’, but tell them that they’re lonely because they listen to Andrew Tate and treat women like shit and once again, you’re a misandrist feminazi. Because they don’t want to actually fix their problems, they just want everyone to tell them there is no problem.
I don’t know. I think my post maybe got more angry and hopeless as it went on because I got a notification of someone calling me a sexist while I was in the middle of typing this. Lol. I wish I knew the solution but feel like I’m trying to reason with toddlers.