Idk I see the people on here acting like the left has no room for straight white cis men, and it frustrates me because I know that a lot of them feel abandoned and rejected, but also we can’t just prioritize them like the right does because we’re asking them to join the rest of us as equals.
This particularly pisses me off, personally. As a white South African that grew up learning about how fucking terrible white people were (and sometimes still are) throughout school, and who didn’t turn into a racist nazi misogynist because of it, these people are full of shit. And weak. And probably not actually good people to begin with if other races and genders being represented or focused on once in a while is such an awful, alienating thing that makes them feel abandoned and rejected.
I’m not sure how to really feel about spoilt brat, first world kiddies that have had everything handed to them and who get 90% of representation in media turning into right wing assholes because video games aren’t giving them as much wanking material anymore. Or because gasp politicians tried to focus on actual marginalized and oppressed groups without giving white men participation trophies too. Poor babies, how awful for them.
To me it’s selfishness. They’re welcome in the left wing. But it’s not a club where we wear stupid red hats, ignore science and objective reality and tell each other how superior we are to everyone else. They had the opportunity to do something right for their mothers and their sisters and their daughters but they didn’t because that would mean doing something good for someone else instead of just whining about how hard life is because Lara Croft’s boobs aren’t big enough. So I’m not sure if they even really want to be left wing.
And yeah I can’t imagine how pissed off people would get if women started saying “not enough men” about good behavior
Yup. And this is why I struggle to see a solution. Because we somehow have to simultaneously guide them or whatever because they’re so sad and fatherless and lost, while also not ever actually mentioning what they’re doing wrong in the first place or else you’re a misandrist feminazi. We’re supposed to tackle the ‘loneliness epidemic’, but tell them that they’re lonely because they listen to Andrew Tate and treat women like shit and once again, you’re a misandrist feminazi. Because they don’t want to actually fix their problems, they just want everyone to tell them there is no problem.
I don’t know. I think my post maybe got more angry and hopeless as it went on because I got a notification of someone calling me a sexist while I was in the middle of typing this. Lol. I wish I knew the solution but feel like I’m trying to reason with toddlers.
Yeah my opinions on the loneliness epidemic begin with a question I rarely see from them: “why isn’t there one for women.” I’m sure the answers will be varied from “women have a ton of support already” (somewhat yes, but largely from other women), to incel ramblings, to saying women are dating each other instead. And it seems like so much of when I see that loneliness epidemic talk it’s referring to wanting romantic partners, and to a certain degree it’s fair, but also what is going on that’s causing one gender of straight people to increasingly choose to be single rather than partnered while the other doesn’t feel that way? And also is romance the solution to their loneliness or would they be better served with more friendships and social hobbies?
And beyond that question, what do they think is the cause and the solution? Because I think in a lot of ways they’d be better served fighting for workers rights to have more time with friends, hobbies, and family than anything the right offers.
Like I don’t disagree with you about the men who go right wing over all this, but i also do think we need to remember that there was a dedicated propaganda campaign aimed at disaffected and alienated young men to push them to the right and to ensure that they remain disaffected, alienated, and angry at the wrong people. That’s gamergate and the alt right pipeline and the manosphere and all the other bullshit this has morphed into. And so here I am, threatened by the rubes in this con. Am I angry? Obviously. But my responding in anger will be used to further radicalize them. It’s a trick the alt right picked up from the Jehovas witnesses and westboro baptists.
So here we are, anger will be used to further my oppression, hand holding will just tire me out. But I think there’s a third option here: to be the side of solutions. When they bring up circumcision as an example of men’s oppression, we bring up that the left sometimes protests against it and that those protests could use their voices. When they talk about men working long hours to support their families we talk about workers rights, fighting for better wages and hours, and fairer distribution of parental labor so that dads get to have more time dadding. When men talk about sexual and domestic violence we say that no matter who is the victim these things are wrong and that we should have more men organizing to combat stigma against these things. Etc.
But once we do that we then stop. Make the moral statement of willingness to support them actually working to solve their problems, then don’t let them turn this into a fight about how they want women to hand them this on a platter or who has it worse. The powerful want us at each other’s throats. They want young men thinking of the left as just as pointlessly angry as the right, because the alternative is to accept that the left might have a world that’s better for everyone in mind. At least that’s the solution I think may be best.
That and encouraging those who can speak to them and reason in a way that they might be willing to listen to. The far right has been focusing on defining the narrative and directing propaganda for a while. And the fact is we’ll always have reactionaries and bigots. Our goal is not to save their souls, only they can, but we might be able to hinder the effectiveness of their propaganda machine.
Or maybe I’m really wrong, and just went on a long ramble for no good reason and am just being too generous with people who arent acting in good faith, I do that sometimes. But I will say this, nobody should be sleeping with right wingers. They’re worse than nothing.
Nah, I think you might be on to something with the third option and it’s something to keep in mind. In fact I might even need to copy and paste your comment to remind myself about it because I think sometimes my anger gets the better of me in these situations.
But it can be so fucking hard to keep the anger at the bay. Just last night, discussing the fact that a poll in Germany showed that 26% of young men support the nu nazi party versus 11% of women, I had someone say to me “oh but women believe in horoscopes, so they’re just as bad.” How do you not flip your shit when coming across that kind of ‘logic’?
And this brings me to another thing, seeing as this place is supposed to be all left wing and shit. There are a lot of supposed left wing people that will speak in the exact same way and have all the exact same points as right wing people when it comes to this discussion about men falling for right wing grifters at over twice the rate as women (as revealed by those Germany stats and many many other stats). A lot of supposed left wing people that will clutch their pearls and cry “sexist!” at the slightest suggestion that 26% of men versus 11% of women means that there’s a problem that needs to be addressed.
So it actually feels a little bit like being stuck between a rock and hard place. It’s not in my nature to just hold my tongue when I can see there’s something wrong but I kinda wish it was because trying to have a constructive conversation about this anywhere other than in specific Reddit subs where you’re preaching to the choir feels like banging your head against the wall.
So unfortunately, it seems to me that it’s not just right wing men that need toddler reasoning in order to convince them but left wing men too. Remember there’s a reason that twoxchromosomes and any other large women’s spaces on Reddit have never been able to take off here on Lemmy. Not even WitchesvsPatriarchy survived this place. And that reason is downvote brigading. The same reason why LGBTQ+ communities need an instance with downvotes disabled. This is why I said earlier that I think women in leadership are the future. At least as far as progressive politics go. Because even progressive men seem to be further behind than women.
I hope you don’t mind if I ask your advice about something. I was going to post this in the non-binary community but it feels safer to do this here. I identify as non-binary / genderqueer but am amab. But I’ve been thinking of doing some shape shifting in these conversations and referring to myself as a man. I feel like it would be a lot more effective to have a ‘man’ saying these things rather than keeping it neutral and vague like I have been. Although this idea makes me feel like a liar too. What do you think?
This particularly pisses me off, personally. As a white South African that grew up learning about how fucking terrible white people were (and sometimes still are) throughout school, and who didn’t turn into a racist nazi misogynist because of it, these people are full of shit. And weak. And probably not actually good people to begin with if other races and genders being represented or focused on once in a while is such an awful, alienating thing that makes them feel abandoned and rejected.
I’m not sure how to really feel about spoilt brat, first world kiddies that have had everything handed to them and who get 90% of representation in media turning into right wing assholes because video games aren’t giving them as much wanking material anymore. Or because gasp politicians tried to focus on actual marginalized and oppressed groups without giving white men participation trophies too. Poor babies, how awful for them.
To me it’s selfishness. They’re welcome in the left wing. But it’s not a club where we wear stupid red hats, ignore science and objective reality and tell each other how superior we are to everyone else. They had the opportunity to do something right for their mothers and their sisters and their daughters but they didn’t because that would mean doing something good for someone else instead of just whining about how hard life is because Lara Croft’s boobs aren’t big enough. So I’m not sure if they even really want to be left wing.
Yup. And this is why I struggle to see a solution. Because we somehow have to simultaneously guide them or whatever because they’re so sad and fatherless and lost, while also not ever actually mentioning what they’re doing wrong in the first place or else you’re a misandrist feminazi. We’re supposed to tackle the ‘loneliness epidemic’, but tell them that they’re lonely because they listen to Andrew Tate and treat women like shit and once again, you’re a misandrist feminazi. Because they don’t want to actually fix their problems, they just want everyone to tell them there is no problem.
I don’t know. I think my post maybe got more angry and hopeless as it went on because I got a notification of someone calling me a sexist while I was in the middle of typing this. Lol. I wish I knew the solution but feel like I’m trying to reason with toddlers.
Yeah my opinions on the loneliness epidemic begin with a question I rarely see from them: “why isn’t there one for women.” I’m sure the answers will be varied from “women have a ton of support already” (somewhat yes, but largely from other women), to incel ramblings, to saying women are dating each other instead. And it seems like so much of when I see that loneliness epidemic talk it’s referring to wanting romantic partners, and to a certain degree it’s fair, but also what is going on that’s causing one gender of straight people to increasingly choose to be single rather than partnered while the other doesn’t feel that way? And also is romance the solution to their loneliness or would they be better served with more friendships and social hobbies?
And beyond that question, what do they think is the cause and the solution? Because I think in a lot of ways they’d be better served fighting for workers rights to have more time with friends, hobbies, and family than anything the right offers.
Like I don’t disagree with you about the men who go right wing over all this, but i also do think we need to remember that there was a dedicated propaganda campaign aimed at disaffected and alienated young men to push them to the right and to ensure that they remain disaffected, alienated, and angry at the wrong people. That’s gamergate and the alt right pipeline and the manosphere and all the other bullshit this has morphed into. And so here I am, threatened by the rubes in this con. Am I angry? Obviously. But my responding in anger will be used to further radicalize them. It’s a trick the alt right picked up from the Jehovas witnesses and westboro baptists.
So here we are, anger will be used to further my oppression, hand holding will just tire me out. But I think there’s a third option here: to be the side of solutions. When they bring up circumcision as an example of men’s oppression, we bring up that the left sometimes protests against it and that those protests could use their voices. When they talk about men working long hours to support their families we talk about workers rights, fighting for better wages and hours, and fairer distribution of parental labor so that dads get to have more time dadding. When men talk about sexual and domestic violence we say that no matter who is the victim these things are wrong and that we should have more men organizing to combat stigma against these things. Etc.
But once we do that we then stop. Make the moral statement of willingness to support them actually working to solve their problems, then don’t let them turn this into a fight about how they want women to hand them this on a platter or who has it worse. The powerful want us at each other’s throats. They want young men thinking of the left as just as pointlessly angry as the right, because the alternative is to accept that the left might have a world that’s better for everyone in mind. At least that’s the solution I think may be best.
That and encouraging those who can speak to them and reason in a way that they might be willing to listen to. The far right has been focusing on defining the narrative and directing propaganda for a while. And the fact is we’ll always have reactionaries and bigots. Our goal is not to save their souls, only they can, but we might be able to hinder the effectiveness of their propaganda machine.
Or maybe I’m really wrong, and just went on a long ramble for no good reason and am just being too generous with people who arent acting in good faith, I do that sometimes. But I will say this, nobody should be sleeping with right wingers. They’re worse than nothing.
Nah, I think you might be on to something with the third option and it’s something to keep in mind. In fact I might even need to copy and paste your comment to remind myself about it because I think sometimes my anger gets the better of me in these situations.
But it can be so fucking hard to keep the anger at the bay. Just last night, discussing the fact that a poll in Germany showed that 26% of young men support the nu nazi party versus 11% of women, I had someone say to me “oh but women believe in horoscopes, so they’re just as bad.” How do you not flip your shit when coming across that kind of ‘logic’?
And this brings me to another thing, seeing as this place is supposed to be all left wing and shit. There are a lot of supposed left wing people that will speak in the exact same way and have all the exact same points as right wing people when it comes to this discussion about men falling for right wing grifters at over twice the rate as women (as revealed by those Germany stats and many many other stats). A lot of supposed left wing people that will clutch their pearls and cry “sexist!” at the slightest suggestion that 26% of men versus 11% of women means that there’s a problem that needs to be addressed.
So it actually feels a little bit like being stuck between a rock and hard place. It’s not in my nature to just hold my tongue when I can see there’s something wrong but I kinda wish it was because trying to have a constructive conversation about this anywhere other than in specific Reddit subs where you’re preaching to the choir feels like banging your head against the wall.
So unfortunately, it seems to me that it’s not just right wing men that need toddler reasoning in order to convince them but left wing men too. Remember there’s a reason that twoxchromosomes and any other large women’s spaces on Reddit have never been able to take off here on Lemmy. Not even WitchesvsPatriarchy survived this place. And that reason is downvote brigading. The same reason why LGBTQ+ communities need an instance with downvotes disabled. This is why I said earlier that I think women in leadership are the future. At least as far as progressive politics go. Because even progressive men seem to be further behind than women.
I hope you don’t mind if I ask your advice about something. I was going to post this in the non-binary community but it feels safer to do this here. I identify as non-binary / genderqueer but am amab. But I’ve been thinking of doing some shape shifting in these conversations and referring to myself as a man. I feel like it would be a lot more effective to have a ‘man’ saying these things rather than keeping it neutral and vague like I have been. Although this idea makes me feel like a liar too. What do you think?