This. As automation increases, fewer of us should have to work. A significant issue with the Soviet Union and their legendary inefficiency is that every one had the right to a job even if there were no jobs to be done. Leading to them creating unnecessary intermediary positions at every level of the system.
Basic income, sure. And people should be educated. But beyond that, encourage the people who don’t need to work to pursue art or other ends. Get them involved in community activities. But work towards a society of leisure if possible.
The flip side of Soviet “everyone must work” inefficiency was the prediction of American economists that we’d have so little work to do thanks to automation that our biggest problem would be filling our free time.
Instead we found more and more work to do, and now work even longer hours. And it’s because people didn’t want to do the hard work of figuring out a new way to run society and just stuck with what they knew.
We see the same thing happening with remote work. It causes some problems, yes, but it’s way better for a lot of reasons. But instead of moving forward and solving those problems organizations are just insisting on doing things the traditional way.
And it’s really sad how many people in this thread can’t see that they’re doing the same thing.
They would have been far, far more efficient if they weren’t so anti-computer. The first attempts at creating a computer system actually dates back to the 1930s during the Stalin era, but Stalin didn’t like it and shut it down (in the West computers were just starting to be invented) and in the early 60s they could have let OGAS be aggressively developed. This would have resulted in an economic boom for the Soviet Union in the 1970s and 80s instead of a downturn. On top of that, the internet as we know it would have been a hell of a lot more different AND better developed if that was the case.
Do you remember on how Sputnik and the Soviets sending a man into space sent the US into a massive tizzy to try to outdo the Soviets in space? Can you imagine if the Soviets also made the first internet and networked computer system that actually ran well? Imagine the pace and the priority given to that instead of the bullshit that was the Vietnam war at the time.
But also distribute work as much as is reasonable so everyone contributes maybe a few hours to the necessary work and not just a few thousand randos working 140hr/week
Exactly. I studied coding and I could have been interned and further taught whatever the hell they needed me to learn. But nope, gotta have 10 years experience for a language that only existed for 5.
You said it yourself: the soviet union’s inefficiency is largely that, a legend. What’s more efficient, to have full employment including most women, or to keep a potential third of your workerbase unemployed? This isn’t to say there weren’t problems in the USSR or that it was almighty, but there’s no serious study or metric by which it was more inefficient than capitalist countries. In fact, the post-soviet republics, 34 years after the dismantling of the country, struggle to regain on average the GDP levels of the communist era, with some countries like Russia barely managing to equal it, and others like Ukraine not being able to recover (including pre-war).
even if there were no jobs to be done. Leading to them creating unnecessary intermediary positions at every level
Again, not historically accurate. The soviet union didn’t need to make up positions, because it ran under permanent labour shortage. When labour becomes a useful resource for society, it gets optimised and used up as much as any other, and allocated according to very calculated plans, which while imperfect, for the most part didn’t create jobs out of a need to create employment. There was chronical labor shortage that reached close to 10% in the 70s (one in ten positions being open for lack of workers). This has to do with leftover mindset from the Stalin years of the soviet economy in which extensive investment in order to mobilise as much of the workforce as possible, massive investment in capital created enormous economic growth, which proved to stagnate as a model after the 70s for a variety of reasons, including literally running out of people to work all the jobs you created. If you want some numeric and nuanced analysis I highly recommend “Farm to Factory” by Robert C. Allen, great book as an overview of the history of the Soviet economy.
I think we view work with disdain because we live in capitalism and 1) working in capitalism sucks 2) not working in capitalism arguably sucks harder. People should have shorter workweeks doing things that help their communities and the society as a whole with their basic needs guaranteed, I’d love to work in such a society
This. As automation increases, fewer of us should have to work. A significant issue with the Soviet Union and their legendary inefficiency is that every one had the right to a job even if there were no jobs to be done. Leading to them creating unnecessary intermediary positions at every level of the system.
Basic income, sure. And people should be educated. But beyond that, encourage the people who don’t need to work to pursue art or other ends. Get them involved in community activities. But work towards a society of leisure if possible.
The flip side of Soviet “everyone must work” inefficiency was the prediction of American economists that we’d have so little work to do thanks to automation that our biggest problem would be filling our free time.
Instead we found more and more work to do, and now work even longer hours. And it’s because people didn’t want to do the hard work of figuring out a new way to run society and just stuck with what they knew.
We see the same thing happening with remote work. It causes some problems, yes, but it’s way better for a lot of reasons. But instead of moving forward and solving those problems organizations are just insisting on doing things the traditional way.
And it’s really sad how many people in this thread can’t see that they’re doing the same thing.
If you’re interested on a brief analysis of the “Soviet inefficiency” you may be interested in reading my previous comment in this thread
Nah
Fair enough, but then maybe consider not discussing things you don’t care learning about as factual
I was talking about the stupid capitalists who insist on people working though, not the stupid communists who insist on people working.
And also throw them into gulags.
They would have been far, far more efficient if they weren’t so anti-computer. The first attempts at creating a computer system actually dates back to the 1930s during the Stalin era, but Stalin didn’t like it and shut it down (in the West computers were just starting to be invented) and in the early 60s they could have let OGAS be aggressively developed. This would have resulted in an economic boom for the Soviet Union in the 1970s and 80s instead of a downturn. On top of that, the internet as we know it would have been a hell of a lot more different AND better developed if that was the case.
Do you remember on how Sputnik and the Soviets sending a man into space sent the US into a massive tizzy to try to outdo the Soviets in space? Can you imagine if the Soviets also made the first internet and networked computer system that actually ran well? Imagine the pace and the priority given to that instead of the bullshit that was the Vietnam war at the time.
Imagine decentralised, computerised economic planning 😭😭
But also distribute work as much as is reasonable so everyone contributes maybe a few hours to the necessary work and not just a few thousand randos working 140hr/week
Exactly. I studied coding and I could have been interned and further taught whatever the hell they needed me to learn. But nope, gotta have 10 years experience for a language that only existed for 5.
You said it yourself: the soviet union’s inefficiency is largely that, a legend. What’s more efficient, to have full employment including most women, or to keep a potential third of your workerbase unemployed? This isn’t to say there weren’t problems in the USSR or that it was almighty, but there’s no serious study or metric by which it was more inefficient than capitalist countries. In fact, the post-soviet republics, 34 years after the dismantling of the country, struggle to regain on average the GDP levels of the communist era, with some countries like Russia barely managing to equal it, and others like Ukraine not being able to recover (including pre-war).
Again, not historically accurate. The soviet union didn’t need to make up positions, because it ran under permanent labour shortage. When labour becomes a useful resource for society, it gets optimised and used up as much as any other, and allocated according to very calculated plans, which while imperfect, for the most part didn’t create jobs out of a need to create employment. There was chronical labor shortage that reached close to 10% in the 70s (one in ten positions being open for lack of workers). This has to do with leftover mindset from the Stalin years of the soviet economy in which extensive investment in order to mobilise as much of the workforce as possible, massive investment in capital created enormous economic growth, which proved to stagnate as a model after the 70s for a variety of reasons, including literally running out of people to work all the jobs you created. If you want some numeric and nuanced analysis I highly recommend “Farm to Factory” by Robert C. Allen, great book as an overview of the history of the Soviet economy.
I think we view work with disdain because we live in capitalism and 1) working in capitalism sucks 2) not working in capitalism arguably sucks harder. People should have shorter workweeks doing things that help their communities and the society as a whole with their basic needs guaranteed, I’d love to work in such a society