I mean, I don’t think that this is a bad thing. People can date and break up as much as they want. Getting married should be seen as something very serious that isn’t easily broken.
I know not everyone has the same experiences, but I’ve seen people treating marriage as throw away and it deeply impacts their children.
Think about the alternative. A woman is trapped in a marriage and the only way out is to prove she’s being abused or her husband gets his mistress pregnant and it’s publicly known.
No it’s not. There are different kinds of abuse that aren’t physical. Besides, you shouldn’t be limited to leaving a situation you hate by having to prove violence. It’s gross to advocate for something like that.
My wife and I married at age 20. We’re now 66 and still going strong. I still don’t understand how or why anyone could be expected to reliably predict the future.
The one thing I can say that we’ve never done is to successfully predict how we would evolve as individuals over time and how that would affect our relationship. We’re not still together because of some decision made over 45 years ago, but because of decisions we’ve made, if not every day, then at least every year.
Of all the flaws in any ideology or even individual belief system, the biggest by far is the idea that a position must be held at all costs or a decision be written in stone for all time.
With that kind of thinking, no honest person would marry while still of an age where having children makes sense. There are no guarantees in life and only a fool thinks there is.
My personal opinion used to be that some people don’t put the effort in to get through a rough patch. I’ve since realized that one person’s rough patch is another’s deal breaker. We’re not all the same, and that includes responses to disaster and resilience in the face of adversity.
Just because it’s not working now and there is no evidence that it can be made to work doesn’t mean anyone entered into it in bad faith. That vow you reference might fit with certain ideologies, but it’s as fragile in the face of reality as most ideologies.
Then why even have marriage? What a stupid concept.
People change, people hide shit. The person you know the absolute best is someone that you don’t know everything about. If someone puts on airs until the wedding and then reveals themselves to be a piece of shit, you should just be stuck with them for life because you signed some stupid paper?
I’d rather abolish the concept of marriage entirely than have to live in some stupid hellhole that follows the rules you think should apply to marriage.
Read the article. Republicans are against no fault divorce, so they want the man to have to approve in order for his wife to divorce him. It’s a way to enslave women.
No human institution, agreement, or connection will ever be free of both bad actors and blameless mistakes, so there must be a way to end such things in order to preserve life, dignity, and happiness.
Our institutions are created to serve us as people, not to bind us for the sake of being binding.
Or just don’t get married to people with red flags. They are usually very obvious and willfully ignored. We need to stop allowing people to hand wave consequences.
You’re flatout uneducated. Read some history on what led to modern divorce laws to begin with
Like this really doesn’t need a discussion. There have been decades of discussion. This is about people not learning a damn thing about that discussion.
There are many people that are extremely adept at pretending to be one person to get someone to fall in love and marry them, and as soon as they are married, they become the real them. Manipulative, controlling, usually abusive, and you would never know until it was too late.
Fault-based grounds usually include mental cruelty, but true mental cruelty has a psychological component that can make it very difficult for the abused spouse to articulate that abuse. More to the point, the abused spouse may be terrified to describe the relationship on paper and testify about it in a court. And of course, a controlling partner will always choose the path of most resistance to whatever it is that the other spouse wants.[14]
It shouldn’t be hard. But it almost always is. Having to prove it means having to confront your abuser and record the incident. That can go wrong in so many ways.
Just curious, but… why do you think no-fault divorce got signed into law in the first place? And do you really think abuse is always “obvious”?
Like, yeah, sometimes it’s black eyes and broken bones, but a lot of abuse is much more subtle and hard to prove. Even setting that aside (and let me be clear: we absolutely should not set it aside), shouldn’t people be able to get out of a marriage before it racks up hospital bills?
I’m married. If, at any point, my wife felt unsafe around me, I would expect her to leave. At that point, I would have violated the sanctity of our marriage, and she shouldn’t have to fucking prove it to anyone, me included.
Researchers who tracked the emergence of no-fault divorce laws state by state over that period found that reform led to dramatic drops in the rates of female suicide and domestic violence, as well as decreases in spousal homicide of women. The decreases, one researcher explained, were “not just because abused women (and men) could more easily divorce their abusers, but also because potential abusers knew that they were more likely to be left.”
It is very easy to end up in a relationship that makes you miserable and your partner treats you badly. But this won’t be always the case in the beginning of your relationship. It may come 5 or 25 years later. Then what?
This is one of many situations in which I would say: before we start trying to reduce something by restricting it, have we tried all (or any) options for reducing it by giving people better options.
Also, to be frank, I don’t understand why it’s my business your yours if third parties get in and out of marriages flippantly. I don’t expect others to get married in my faith tradition, why should it matter to me if they get married by an Elvis impersonator every Saturday night?
If it’s about kids, the solutions should be about helping kids with divorced parents. Because keeping those particular parents from getting divorced is doing those poor kids no favors.
You say that like unmarried people can’t have kids and people who don’t have kids can’t get married. Yknow, exactly like crowder the situation at hand?
I feel like you are a troll, but I’m going to bite anyway. Your personal feelings, opinions, or desires based on anecdotal evidence (!=) justification for public policy decisions.
If you and your hypothetical spouse wish to stay together even if you no longer love one another due to what you perceive to be a moral (and/or) contractual obligation in order to potentially benefit your hypothetical children, then that is your prerogative.
However:
Not everyone that is married has children, can have children, or wants to have children. In this case you are FORCING two adults to stay legally bound in a relationship that they are no longer consenting to.
There is ample research that forcing an abused person to stay bound to their abuser increases the likelihood of them being murdered by an order of magnitude.
You are making a claim that an abused party should easily be able to prove abuse, and this is neither true or relevant. Emotional, verbal, or psychological abuse can be incredibly difficult to prove as an example.
I’m assuming you would not support legally requiring an employee to stay in a workplace where they were subject to harrasment, manipulation, lopsided power dynamics, or other toxic behavior against their will. So the same standards should apply to breaching the contract of marriage.
Lastly, why the fuck would you think your personal opinion on marriage should have any bearing or impact on the way in which I choose to live my life? This is the same tired argument that was used against gay marriage, and let me put it to you as politely as I can:
There is no fucking chance that I am going to see the hard fought rights of my LGBTQ brothers and sisters taken away without a fight, and there is no fucking chance I am letting the psychotic ambitions of Republican megalomaniacs trample on the hard fought rights of everyday Americans to pursue life, liberty, and their own happiness.
You say that now, but next they’ll be coming for premarital cohabitation and eventually we’ll be back to fathers literally selling their daughters as brides as chattels through the mechanism of arranged marriages they can’t terminate.
Breaking up with your girlfriend/boyfriend/partner/etc. and divorcing them in the US are nowhere near the same thing. The financial aspects alone can and often do ruin lives.
I agree that people don’t take marriage as seriously as they should… but if you genuinely value some nebulous term like ‘sanctity of marriage’ more than protecting women from abusive partners, you need to give your head a wobble.
It always used to make me laugh that the horrid county clerk who refused to sign gay marriage certificates, claiming she was trying to respect the sanctity of marriage, respected that sanctity so much that she’d married 5 times.
I think it’s even dumber than that. If you really value something as a holy divine relationship that serves as the foundation of a loving family home, why would you force people into it who aren’t happy in it.
As society quickly fills with these unhappy households, all of their children learn that for all its divine protection, marriage is a terrible arrangement. That completely undermines the sanctity of marriage. That or it tells everyone that marriage, and God by extension, is a cruel arrangement meant to cause as much suffering as possible.
These people don’t actually believe in what they say. This isn’t news if you see how they treat the poor.
It may surprise you that people are allowed to have different opinions and come to conclusions based on their own experiences. Insults don’t really affect or sway anyone’s opinions, nor do they silence those you deem ineligible of thought.
I mean, I don’t think that this is a bad thing. People can date and break up as much as they want. Getting married should be seen as something very serious that isn’t easily broken.
I know not everyone has the same experiences, but I’ve seen people treating marriage as throw away and it deeply impacts their children.
Think about the alternative. A woman is trapped in a marriage and the only way out is to prove she’s being abused or her husband gets his mistress pregnant and it’s publicly known.
Is that better for the children?
There’s a reason that no fault divorce became a thing.
Yeah because if they are being abused, especially with children present. It’s easy to prove.
No it’s not. There are different kinds of abuse that aren’t physical. Besides, you shouldn’t be limited to leaving a situation you hate by having to prove violence. It’s gross to advocate for something like that.
Then don’t get married to someone you might leave
My wife and I married at age 20. We’re now 66 and still going strong. I still don’t understand how or why anyone could be expected to reliably predict the future.
The one thing I can say that we’ve never done is to successfully predict how we would evolve as individuals over time and how that would affect our relationship. We’re not still together because of some decision made over 45 years ago, but because of decisions we’ve made, if not every day, then at least every year.
Of all the flaws in any ideology or even individual belief system, the biggest by far is the idea that a position must be held at all costs or a decision be written in stone for all time.
If you can’t be sure, one should not marry.
It’s for better or worse, for sick or for poor.
Or do we just lie when we take vows these days?
With that kind of thinking, no honest person would marry while still of an age where having children makes sense. There are no guarantees in life and only a fool thinks there is.
My personal opinion used to be that some people don’t put the effort in to get through a rough patch. I’ve since realized that one person’s rough patch is another’s deal breaker. We’re not all the same, and that includes responses to disaster and resilience in the face of adversity.
Just because it’s not working now and there is no evidence that it can be made to work doesn’t mean anyone entered into it in bad faith. That vow you reference might fit with certain ideologies, but it’s as fragile in the face of reality as most ideologies.
Then why even have marriage? What a stupid concept.
People change, people hide shit. The person you know the absolute best is someone that you don’t know everything about. If someone puts on airs until the wedding and then reveals themselves to be a piece of shit, you should just be stuck with them for life because you signed some stupid paper?
I’d rather abolish the concept of marriage entirely than have to live in some stupid hellhole that follows the rules you think should apply to marriage.
You cannot seriously be this much of a dense cunt
Oh, he’s a troll. He’s probably made a while life of pretending to be this stupid everytime someone expects something reasonable from him.
Please explain why someone should marry someone they do not 100% know?
So you’re telling me you are this much of a dense cunt. Wow.
You didn’t say anything that would make it easy to prove. Just more people threatened if caught trying to prove it.
Did you not learn what the word ‘abuse’ means in school?
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
No, it’s a bad thing because without no-fault divorce laws someone could very easily be trapped in an abusive relationship with no recourse.
Forget abusive marriages, what about loveless marriages?
Doesn’t no-fault mean that either party can get a divorce for any reason?
Am I misunderstanding what “no-fault” means here?
Read the article. Republicans are against no fault divorce, so they want the man to have to approve in order for his wife to divorce him. It’s a way to enslave women.
I mean then why did she marry him? Maybe people should date longer instead of rushing into marriage.
No human institution, agreement, or connection will ever be free of both bad actors and blameless mistakes, so there must be a way to end such things in order to preserve life, dignity, and happiness.
Our institutions are created to serve us as people, not to bind us for the sake of being binding.
Or just don’t get married to people with red flags. They are usually very obvious and willfully ignored. We need to stop allowing people to hand wave consequences.
True wisdom from the biggest red flag in this thread.
You can’t possibly be serious.
He is, unfortunately
You’re flatout uneducated. Read some history on what led to modern divorce laws to begin with
Like this really doesn’t need a discussion. There have been decades of discussion. This is about people not learning a damn thing about that discussion.
There are many people that are extremely adept at pretending to be one person to get someone to fall in love and marry them, and as soon as they are married, they become the real them. Manipulative, controlling, usually abusive, and you would never know until it was too late.
What the fuck? It’s clear you’re an incel, but my gosh you don’t get to imprison other people because they finally realize you’re a piece of trash.
Yeah for your God’s sake and ours keep staying a virgin brother thanx for listening
I have 8 kids.
Of course
Maybe?
From the Wikipedia:
Fault-based grounds usually include mental cruelty, but true mental cruelty has a psychological component that can make it very difficult for the abused spouse to articulate that abuse. More to the point, the abused spouse may be terrified to describe the relationship on paper and testify about it in a court. And of course, a controlling partner will always choose the path of most resistance to whatever it is that the other spouse wants.[14]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-fault_divorce
deleted by creator
They can prove abuse, as mentioned in the article. It shouldn’t be hard if they are being abused.
Abuse should not be necessary to end a marriage. I hope that is obvious.
It shouldn’t be hard. But it almost always is. Having to prove it means having to confront your abuser and record the incident. That can go wrong in so many ways.
I…
Wow.
Just curious, but… why do you think no-fault divorce got signed into law in the first place? And do you really think abuse is always “obvious”?
Like, yeah, sometimes it’s black eyes and broken bones, but a lot of abuse is much more subtle and hard to prove. Even setting that aside (and let me be clear: we absolutely should not set it aside), shouldn’t people be able to get out of a marriage before it racks up hospital bills?
I’m married. If, at any point, my wife felt unsafe around me, I would expect her to leave. At that point, I would have violated the sanctity of our marriage, and she shouldn’t have to fucking prove it to anyone, me included.
We’ll just ignore this, then?
Well, yeah. They have to ignore that part, or else they’re obviously the assholes here.
It is very easy to end up in a relationship that makes you miserable and your partner treats you badly. But this won’t be always the case in the beginning of your relationship. It may come 5 or 25 years later. Then what?
This is one of many situations in which I would say: before we start trying to reduce something by restricting it, have we tried all (or any) options for reducing it by giving people better options.
Also, to be frank, I don’t understand why it’s my business your yours if third parties get in and out of marriages flippantly. I don’t expect others to get married in my faith tradition, why should it matter to me if they get married by an Elvis impersonator every Saturday night?
If it’s about kids, the solutions should be about helping kids with divorced parents. Because keeping those particular parents from getting divorced is doing those poor kids no favors.
You say that like unmarried people can’t have kids and people who don’t have kids can’t get married. Yknow, exactly like crowder the situation at hand?
I feel like you are a troll, but I’m going to bite anyway. Your personal feelings, opinions, or desires based on anecdotal evidence (!=) justification for public policy decisions.
If you and your hypothetical spouse wish to stay together even if you no longer love one another due to what you perceive to be a moral (and/or) contractual obligation in order to potentially benefit your hypothetical children, then that is your prerogative.
However:
Not everyone that is married has children, can have children, or wants to have children. In this case you are FORCING two adults to stay legally bound in a relationship that they are no longer consenting to.
There is ample research that forcing an abused person to stay bound to their abuser increases the likelihood of them being murdered by an order of magnitude.
You are making a claim that an abused party should easily be able to prove abuse, and this is neither true or relevant. Emotional, verbal, or psychological abuse can be incredibly difficult to prove as an example.
I’m assuming you would not support legally requiring an employee to stay in a workplace where they were subject to harrasment, manipulation, lopsided power dynamics, or other toxic behavior against their will. So the same standards should apply to breaching the contract of marriage.
Lastly, why the fuck would you think your personal opinion on marriage should have any bearing or impact on the way in which I choose to live my life? This is the same tired argument that was used against gay marriage, and let me put it to you as politely as I can:
There is no fucking chance that I am going to see the hard fought rights of my LGBTQ brothers and sisters taken away without a fight, and there is no fucking chance I am letting the psychotic ambitions of Republican megalomaniacs trample on the hard fought rights of everyday Americans to pursue life, liberty, and their own happiness.
You say that now, but next they’ll be coming for premarital cohabitation and eventually we’ll be back to fathers literally selling their daughters as brides as chattels through the mechanism of arranged marriages they can’t terminate.
Hi Steven!
You’re mistaking a perfect world with the world that we live in.
Breaking up with your girlfriend/boyfriend/partner/etc. and divorcing them in the US are nowhere near the same thing. The financial aspects alone can and often do ruin lives.
Bingo
I agree that people don’t take marriage as seriously as they should… but if you genuinely value some nebulous term like ‘sanctity of marriage’ more than protecting women from abusive partners, you need to give your head a wobble.
It always used to make me laugh that the horrid county clerk who refused to sign gay marriage certificates, claiming she was trying to respect the sanctity of marriage, respected that sanctity so much that she’d married 5 times.
I think it’s even dumber than that. If you really value something as a holy divine relationship that serves as the foundation of a loving family home, why would you force people into it who aren’t happy in it.
As society quickly fills with these unhappy households, all of their children learn that for all its divine protection, marriage is a terrible arrangement. That completely undermines the sanctity of marriage. That or it tells everyone that marriage, and God by extension, is a cruel arrangement meant to cause as much suffering as possible.
These people don’t actually believe in what they say. This isn’t news if you see how they treat the poor.
Agreed. They just want to hurt people who are different because they’re not emotionally intelligent enough to understand their own feelings.
deleted by creator
It may surprise you that people are allowed to have different opinions and come to conclusions based on their own experiences. Insults don’t really affect or sway anyone’s opinions, nor do they silence those you deem ineligible of thought.
No one is trying to sway your thoughts. You haven’t arrived at them by way of logic and reason, so nothing reasonable will remove you from them.
We just want you to shut the fuck up and crawl back under your bridge.