You say “you support the shit out of everyone” except that’s logically and literally impossible. There are groups with conflicting and contradictory worldviews, and to support one is to reject the other.
I’m not distancing myself from trans people. I am trans. I’m distancing myself from the transgender movement, which is mostly not made up of transsexuals.
I do not and cannot support the transgender movement because their foundational worldview is that transsexuals like myself do not exist. And until they yield on that topic, I cannot support them without denying my own existence.
I try to love and support everyone, but that means disagreeing with harmful pseudoscientific ideologies like the transgender movement. It means distancing myself from lgbtq progressives. Because those ideologies and worldviews are harmful to trans people.
I have no idea what you think “transgender” and “transsexual” mean, but I can almost guarantee it’s not what other people mean when they say those things.
When I say transsexual I refer to people with the medical condition transsexualism that’s been known and studied for over 100 years now.
When I say “transgender” I refer to those people who “identify as transgender”. It appears to be a political movement, and not one I agree with.
There’s a great effort by the transgender community and transvestites as a whole to appropriate transsexualism and deny transsexuals exist, as I mentioned in my previous post. Naturally my usage of the word transsexual will differ from theirs, because they are literally trying to deny transsexuals exist.
This is a good example of why people who identify as conservative shouldn’t be trying to moderate LGBTQ+ spaces, even if they identify somewhere in that spectrum themselves. Conservatism at its heart is fundamentally focused on determining how other people do not belong to your “in” group and do not deserve the same privileges and rights as you do. Put more famously, “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
You’re not quite doing it here with your really badly couched transmedicalist take and your skirting around actually saying what you mean, but we all know what you mean so I’m not sure why you’re being so coy about it.
Conservatism at its heart is fundamentally focused on determining how other people do not belong to your “in” group and do not deserve the same privileges and rights as you do.
Definitely not unique to conservativism. I think that’s just a facet of humanity. Modern day progressivism is infamous for shooting itself in the foot with purity tests.
You misunderstand. People do have a strong tendency to do that, yes. Conservativism is about that, it enshrines that. You can have leftism without infighting. You can have LGBTQ+ without radical exclusion. You cannot have conservativism without exclusion of outgroups.
That’s an excellent point, you’re totally right. I just did a “both sides”. There’s a massive difference between the two, and I shouldn’t have equated them.
I support protection for all kinds of people, both transsexual and transvestite. What I care about on this topic though is clarity and recognition of individuals, and being able to clearly talk about different demographics. That’s simply impossible to do if you try to use the same word to refer to entirely different kinds of people and different situations.
How can you speak about homosexuality, if you call straight people “gay” and “homosexual”? it’s impossible!
You accuse me of transmedicalism, but I’d argue against this accusation. “transmedicalism” is a word that’s used to describe people with a different view, relating to gender identity and gender dysphoria with gender identity disorder, and is unrelated to transsexuals and our issues/needs. many transmedicalists also deny transsexuals exist.
As long as there’s clarity in speech, and a recognition of my medical condition (transsexualism) without conflation or appropriation, then I’m happy. I don’t mind supporting others with different situations. but I won’t yield and forfeit my ability to speak about myself and my medical situation.
Fella, you described transgenderism as “pseudoscience” and a “harmful ideology”. You don’t get to go back and try to claim you’re actually totally fine with it and just want everyone to be clear what they mean… Especially not when you still haven’t actually said what you mean. You were very open about your in- and out-groups there.
This is what I find so baffling. You wear it on your sleeve, but the moment people actually address your big claimed grievance you back away and won’t own it. At least if you’re going to side with the bigots that want you dead, don’t be such a fucking coward about it.
Yeah I think I miss read your comment as saying you wanted it lgb… my bad I assumed something and didn’t fully read what ya said…my comment is deleted somehow wish it was still up anyhoo I’m super confused on the nuance on this because ive never heard any transgender or transsexual person in my life not support the other or say they dont exist but Ive only had a handful in my life at different times so you probably know more about the community… just be supportive and accepting and your alright in my book… and honestly Ive never once heard what you are saying come out of any transgender or transsexual friends mouths your the first Ive heard of it… very confused on why someone would say you don’t exist cause you do
Well I’m pretty careful when I use the acronym. Personally I consider myself, and support “LGBT”. There’s an “LGB” movement that I find myself aligned with, albeit disagreeing with. Then there are the people who use “LGBTQ” or “LGBTQIA” and other such things, and I find myself opposed to them.
ive never heard any transgender or transsexual person in my life not support the other or say they dont exist but Ive only had a handful in my life at different times so you probably know more about the community… just be supportive and accepting and your alright in my book.
Yes, it’s unfortunately the case that on this topic there’s a few different worldviews/beliefs and they contradict each other, which leads to a lot of hostility and upset feelings in both directions. I agree that we should try to be kind, understanding, and supportive. But to do that means I need to disagree with some worldviews that may end up hurting some people’s feelings.
nd honestly Ive never once heard what you are saying come out of any transgender or transsexual friends mouths your the first Ive heard of it… very confused on why someone would say you don’t exist cause you do
The issue is because many people with transvestism conditions identify themselves as “transgender” and hold the belief that they have a “gender identity” that differs from their natal sex. In many cases they argue that this is due to having an oppositely sexed brain. The problem is that that view is simply untrue. There are sexed brains, and there are people with oppositely sexed brains, but that condition is transsexualism, not transvestism. And so these transgender/transvestite people try to argue it applies to them, and then deny that people outside of their situation (namely transsexuals) exist.
One of their big ideas involves “gender dysphoria”. They believe that gender dysphoria arises due to the sex of the brain differing from the sex of the body, and thus dysphoria results. However, transsexuals like myself prove this to be untrue; as we do not experience “gender dysphoria” (or any other transvestism symptom) at any point.
Due to this, these people often start saying I’m “not actually trans” or that I’m “being a bigot” or that I “actually do have such symptoms and am lying/mistaken” and so on. a very hostile response.
I’d really like there to be some mutual understanding and arrival of views, but I don’t think it’s likely the way things are going…
One of their big ideas involves “gender dysphoria”. They believe that gender dysphoria arises due to the sex of the brain differing from the sex of the body, and thus dysphoria results. However, transsexuals like myself prove this to be untrue; as we do not experience “gender dysphoria” (or any other transvestism symptom) at any point.
As a cis dude I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but that’s not great reasoning. Gender dysphoria could very well be a thing that many people experience, just not you or other (many? most?) transvestites.
I’m not going around saying “I’m not gay therefore gay people must not exist”, it’s absurd. I’m not gay, most people are not gay, but homosexuality is absolutely a thing that exists.
Right. Gender Dysphoria is a real, medically recognized, issue that many people suffer from. I don’t deny that at all. Rather, the issue comes from the transgender movement’s claims about what causes gender dysphoria (how it arises in a person).
Transsexuals do not experience gender dysphoria. We just don’t. That isn’t saying it doesn’t exist. It’s not saying it’s not a real thing people suffer from. It’s not saying that it shouldn’t be treated. Only that, for transsexuals, we do not experience that symptom or issue.
So to then declare that gender dysphoria is caused by a brain/sex conflict, is to essentially deny that transsexuals, who have medically transitioned, exist. Because we transitioned and do not experience dysphoria either before or after medical treatment.
It’s a bit like someone going around saying “I chose to be gay, therefore being gay is a choice and has no underlying feelings/urges/etc about it”. Like maybe your situation yes you chose something, but that is unrelated to what people usually mean when they speak of homosexuality.
Hopefully that makes sense. So in my speech I make sure to clarify that gender dysphoria is a symptom of what is medically known as transvestism conditions (dual role transvestism often called genderfluid, autogynephili, and gender identity disorder). These are real medical conditions and actually have gender dysphoria as a symptom.
Transsexualism is also a medical condition, but this medical condition does not have gender dysphoria as a symptom. So if you have gender dysphoria, you don’t have transsexualism, but instead some other condition.
To clarify between these medical conditions isn’t hate speech. it’s not denying someone exists. It’s not saying they shouldn’t get the help they need. It’s not saying they shouldn’t be supported. It’s simply saying that their situation is different from the situation that I have (called transsexualism), and that we should clarify that they are different.
I think I understand what you’re saying. I’m not very deeply knowledgeable about the topic. But by giving all the attention to gender dysphoria and having transgender people suck all the oxygen out of the room, actions meant to help transgender people can (unintentionally or perhaps intentionally) harm transsexuals? And you’re particularly angry at the modern LGBTQ+++ movement for supporting and even embracing the words and actions that harm transsexuals? Am I understanding your viewpoint?
You say “you support the shit out of everyone” except that’s logically and literally impossible. There are groups with conflicting and contradictory worldviews, and to support one is to reject the other.
I’m not distancing myself from trans people. I am trans. I’m distancing myself from the transgender movement, which is mostly not made up of transsexuals.
I do not and cannot support the transgender movement because their foundational worldview is that transsexuals like myself do not exist. And until they yield on that topic, I cannot support them without denying my own existence.
I try to love and support everyone, but that means disagreeing with harmful pseudoscientific ideologies like the transgender movement. It means distancing myself from lgbtq progressives. Because those ideologies and worldviews are harmful to trans people.
I have no idea what you think “transgender” and “transsexual” mean, but I can almost guarantee it’s not what other people mean when they say those things.
When I say transsexual I refer to people with the medical condition transsexualism that’s been known and studied for over 100 years now.
When I say “transgender” I refer to those people who “identify as transgender”. It appears to be a political movement, and not one I agree with.
There’s a great effort by the transgender community and transvestites as a whole to appropriate transsexualism and deny transsexuals exist, as I mentioned in my previous post. Naturally my usage of the word transsexual will differ from theirs, because they are literally trying to deny transsexuals exist.
Yep, what I said then.
This is a good example of why people who identify as conservative shouldn’t be trying to moderate LGBTQ+ spaces, even if they identify somewhere in that spectrum themselves. Conservatism at its heart is fundamentally focused on determining how other people do not belong to your “in” group and do not deserve the same privileges and rights as you do. Put more famously, “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
You’re not quite doing it here with your really badly couched transmedicalist take and your skirting around actually saying what you mean, but we all know what you mean so I’m not sure why you’re being so coy about it.
Definitely not unique to conservativism. I think that’s just a facet of humanity. Modern day progressivism is infamous for shooting itself in the foot with purity tests.
You misunderstand. People do have a strong tendency to do that, yes. Conservativism is about that, it enshrines that. You can have leftism without infighting. You can have LGBTQ+ without radical exclusion. You cannot have conservativism without exclusion of outgroups.
That’s an excellent point, you’re totally right. I just did a “both sides”. There’s a massive difference between the two, and I shouldn’t have equated them.
I support protection for all kinds of people, both transsexual and transvestite. What I care about on this topic though is clarity and recognition of individuals, and being able to clearly talk about different demographics. That’s simply impossible to do if you try to use the same word to refer to entirely different kinds of people and different situations.
How can you speak about homosexuality, if you call straight people “gay” and “homosexual”? it’s impossible!
You accuse me of transmedicalism, but I’d argue against this accusation. “transmedicalism” is a word that’s used to describe people with a different view, relating to gender identity and gender dysphoria with gender identity disorder, and is unrelated to transsexuals and our issues/needs. many transmedicalists also deny transsexuals exist.
As long as there’s clarity in speech, and a recognition of my medical condition (transsexualism) without conflation or appropriation, then I’m happy. I don’t mind supporting others with different situations. but I won’t yield and forfeit my ability to speak about myself and my medical situation.
Fella, you described transgenderism as “pseudoscience” and a “harmful ideology”. You don’t get to go back and try to claim you’re actually totally fine with it and just want everyone to be clear what they mean… Especially not when you still haven’t actually said what you mean. You were very open about your in- and out-groups there.
This is what I find so baffling. You wear it on your sleeve, but the moment people actually address your big claimed grievance you back away and won’t own it. At least if you’re going to side with the bigots that want you dead, don’t be such a fucking coward about it.
Yeah I think I miss read your comment as saying you wanted it lgb… my bad I assumed something and didn’t fully read what ya said…my comment is deleted somehow wish it was still up anyhoo I’m super confused on the nuance on this because ive never heard any transgender or transsexual person in my life not support the other or say they dont exist but Ive only had a handful in my life at different times so you probably know more about the community… just be supportive and accepting and your alright in my book… and honestly Ive never once heard what you are saying come out of any transgender or transsexual friends mouths your the first Ive heard of it… very confused on why someone would say you don’t exist cause you do
Well I’m pretty careful when I use the acronym. Personally I consider myself, and support “LGBT”. There’s an “LGB” movement that I find myself aligned with, albeit disagreeing with. Then there are the people who use “LGBTQ” or “LGBTQIA” and other such things, and I find myself opposed to them.
Yes, it’s unfortunately the case that on this topic there’s a few different worldviews/beliefs and they contradict each other, which leads to a lot of hostility and upset feelings in both directions. I agree that we should try to be kind, understanding, and supportive. But to do that means I need to disagree with some worldviews that may end up hurting some people’s feelings.
The issue is because many people with transvestism conditions identify themselves as “transgender” and hold the belief that they have a “gender identity” that differs from their natal sex. In many cases they argue that this is due to having an oppositely sexed brain. The problem is that that view is simply untrue. There are sexed brains, and there are people with oppositely sexed brains, but that condition is transsexualism, not transvestism. And so these transgender/transvestite people try to argue it applies to them, and then deny that people outside of their situation (namely transsexuals) exist.
One of their big ideas involves “gender dysphoria”. They believe that gender dysphoria arises due to the sex of the brain differing from the sex of the body, and thus dysphoria results. However, transsexuals like myself prove this to be untrue; as we do not experience “gender dysphoria” (or any other transvestism symptom) at any point.
Due to this, these people often start saying I’m “not actually trans” or that I’m “being a bigot” or that I “actually do have such symptoms and am lying/mistaken” and so on. a very hostile response.
I’d really like there to be some mutual understanding and arrival of views, but I don’t think it’s likely the way things are going…
As a cis dude I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but that’s not great reasoning. Gender dysphoria could very well be a thing that many people experience, just not you or other (many? most?) transvestites.
I’m not going around saying “I’m not gay therefore gay people must not exist”, it’s absurd. I’m not gay, most people are not gay, but homosexuality is absolutely a thing that exists.
Right. Gender Dysphoria is a real, medically recognized, issue that many people suffer from. I don’t deny that at all. Rather, the issue comes from the transgender movement’s claims about what causes gender dysphoria (how it arises in a person).
Transsexuals do not experience gender dysphoria. We just don’t. That isn’t saying it doesn’t exist. It’s not saying it’s not a real thing people suffer from. It’s not saying that it shouldn’t be treated. Only that, for transsexuals, we do not experience that symptom or issue.
So to then declare that gender dysphoria is caused by a brain/sex conflict, is to essentially deny that transsexuals, who have medically transitioned, exist. Because we transitioned and do not experience dysphoria either before or after medical treatment.
It’s a bit like someone going around saying “I chose to be gay, therefore being gay is a choice and has no underlying feelings/urges/etc about it”. Like maybe your situation yes you chose something, but that is unrelated to what people usually mean when they speak of homosexuality.
Hopefully that makes sense. So in my speech I make sure to clarify that gender dysphoria is a symptom of what is medically known as transvestism conditions (dual role transvestism often called genderfluid, autogynephili, and gender identity disorder). These are real medical conditions and actually have gender dysphoria as a symptom.
Transsexualism is also a medical condition, but this medical condition does not have gender dysphoria as a symptom. So if you have gender dysphoria, you don’t have transsexualism, but instead some other condition.
To clarify between these medical conditions isn’t hate speech. it’s not denying someone exists. It’s not saying they shouldn’t get the help they need. It’s not saying they shouldn’t be supported. It’s simply saying that their situation is different from the situation that I have (called transsexualism), and that we should clarify that they are different.
I think I understand what you’re saying. I’m not very deeply knowledgeable about the topic. But by giving all the attention to gender dysphoria and having transgender people suck all the oxygen out of the room, actions meant to help transgender people can (unintentionally or perhaps intentionally) harm transsexuals? And you’re particularly angry at the modern LGBTQ+++ movement for supporting and even embracing the words and actions that harm transsexuals? Am I understanding your viewpoint?