Brasilia, Aug 2 (EFE).- The war in Ukraine proves that the world needs a new system of global governance, Brazilian president Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva said Wednesday. In his first press conference with foreign journalists since he took office on January 1, Lula said the United Nations had failed to assume its “responsibility” because …
No, but I acknowledge that Russia has demands, and has had those demands ever since before the war. Also most of the sources I provided were from US-based outlets so claiming that it comes straight from Russia is misleading.
Hmmmm, no? Russians will believe what they’re shown with their own critical view, much like you and me. By having NATO at the very least address those grievances instead of pretending they don’t exist (or as they actually did, escalating), it wouldn’t surprise anybody that they’d get more galvanised. It’s strangely common here to see people who just completely disregard the support for this war from the Russian people. They’re human too, y’know.
And when questions are questioned I answer then. It’s not my fault you were so off the mark that I needed to contextualise the whole thing.
Take your time, no rush. You might learn a thing or two, and then I might learn a thing your two from your reply.
It’s a common disinformation tactic to provide a fuckton of sourced information that contextualises all that is being said and provides argumentation and conclusion. Come on now, if you don’t like forum discussions why did you even come here to discuss something you don’t really care enough about?
This one is shorter, how about that?
Everyone has demands. I could demand right now that you change your opinion. Does that mean my demand should be taken seriously? No. I have no problem acknowledging Russia has demands. I have a problem taking those demands seriously because every single demand is baseless or self-inflicted.
Except their critical view is being twisted by state propaganda. Any Russian inside Russia has to fully reject all major information channels from within Russia to even have a chance for an objective critical view.
Two questions. What grievances? The ones you mentioned or the ones Putin mentioned? Because you brought up slightly difference grievances than Putin. And the second question is how is NATO supposed to address them? For instance the one about Nazis in Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO. The one about nukes isn’t actually related to NATO either, it’s related to the countries that signed the Budapest memorandum.
Where precisely did NATO itself escalate the issue. Last I checked NATO itself hasn’t done anything except reject the unrealistic proposal Russia presented. It’s entirely unrealistic to demand NATO stop it’s open door policy in regards to Ukraine, demand NATO forces out of NATO countries and demand that NATO countries themselves refuse to support Ukraine.
That’s an interesting thing to say, because most vocal Russians on Reddit actually claimed to be against the war and blamed “the west” for demonizing Russian people for supporting the war. I agree that they’re human too but clearly the support is not as clear as you make it seem to be.
The rest of the comment is not relevant to the discussion.
Yes, it means that I’m aware of your demand and that I choose not to comply because you haven’t provided enough justifications. On the other hand I’m de-escalating the situation by showing how the flaws in your reasoning. NATO could’ve done the same thing, but instead they chose to pretend the coup was a revolution, and all is right in the world. And you are now choosing to not read all the information which I provided, then throwing your arms to the sky and proclaiming that “there’s no such information.”
So is ours. Welcome to the internet where bourgeois newspapers do their darnedest to control the narratives. However you don’t need to “fully reject” the outlets much as I haven’t “fully rejected” mnsbc or other USA news there, just read them critically. They still have the internet and a lot of them speak English, so if they want they can check multiple sources, which is how you actually develop critical views, not by just discarding the ones you don’t trust 100% percent. You may notice I didn’t outright discard any of your (rare) sources.
You might want to elaborate on that. Since I’m not the President of Russia, I think you should go with the Putin ones of blocking Ukraine from NATO, ending the Donbass war and removing the Nazis from government. It’s all in the speech, if you read it.
Read above, but I’m also not the French ambassador so they could think of clever compromises too, so long as they actually acknowledged the Russian moral concerns. They didn’t even go that far. (though I could be wrong there, fetch me a source disproving this, will ya).
Those weapons would’t be developed locally, they’d come from the USA as has been happening in other EU countries. A simple official statement “no, we won’t give them nukes” would’ve been cool I think. Obviously they didn’t do it because, again, this war has been a long time coming and NATO wanted it. Ukraine is the one paying the price.
Read the sources, you’ll see that the Maidan coup was backed by NATO, that they have been supplying weapons for the war on Donbass, and that right now they are providing material support for Ukraine, which is not (and probably will never be) a NATO country. There are leaked calls in which US diplomats basically choose who should become prime minister, the previous spitballing of nukes and now even the destruction of Nordstream and the providing of cluster munitions. Since you’re not bothering to check the sources I’ll only provide the ones you ask for.
Not really, Ukraine is not in NATO so they could stop all of those things there. In fact it’s possible they stop doing it in a while after this failed counter-offensive of their own volition. It is at least less unrealistic than the Ukrainian government demand that the Russian forces need to pack it up and go home, abandoning all of their costly victories in the war, in order for there to be any peace talks. Always remember that this support started with the Donbass war which has killed thousands and displaced millions, and even Zelenskyy himself has said it was a huge mistake.
Oh wow, Russians on reddit, a website that literally banned Genzedong for being critically supportive of the SMO. That certainly doesn’t include any biases in your anecdotal experience that need to be accounted for. Apparently the support public opinion on Putin is up since the beginning of the war, but I don’t really like statista as a source and search engines are flooded with “Americans think Russia bad” NYT articles so I’m not bothering with that. Feel free to find better sources that give more foundation to your experience, but the proxy speculation I was using for the support is that the Russian military has spent the past 18 months at war while their country receives an absurd amount of sanctions. This is hard to maintain without public support, but I could be wrong.
The rest of my comment is very relevant to the discussion because apparently you seem to think that providing sources and discussing on an internet forum is “disinformation,” which I think is why you don’t provide any yourself. I’m sorry to tell you, but if you come here saying nonsense and people provide counterarguments with evidence backing them, you’re just wasting everybody’s time with your speculations and hearsay if you don’t respond on their level. You should probably read before you write.
Well? You were so ready to prove me wrong and I’m still waiting. I’ve given you days to find the sources for your claims, but I guess it’s hard to find sources for made up shit. Maybe you should follow your own advice and read before you write, otherwise you just end up self-owning yourself.
Nah, I actually wrote a thing out but lemmy 0.18.3 was buggy as hell and it didn’t post, and it ruined my mood for this. Since you’ve shown yourself to be so lazy that you couldn’t just google the statistics of English speakers in Russia (hint, wikipedia has some easily digestible data), it’s pretty clear you’re just wasting my time and moving the goalposts, misrepresenting your own sources and generally acting in bad faith, and the comment thread is so hidden that engaging with your bad faith won’t even help to reach even actually curious lurkers. No point in it for me really, prove yourself right all you want in an endless thread talking to yourself. Maybe this talking to this lad instead, you both think alike.
As evidence of your nonsense:
What is the official name for that coup, Coup of Dignity?
Actually read those and point me where the actual de-escalation is in there. Literally dismiss Russia’s claims offhandedly while claiming “changes in transparency” or other political non-statements.
Your honour, I didn’t kill him, it was my brain who told the finger to pull the trigger.
Military defence alliance can’t control its members, logically.
lmao, find me an official Russian source denying their support for the independence of the eastern republics.
Yes. Find me a single case in modern history where a peace talk only started (read: not a surrender) only after the winning party abandoned all their military gains. You can probably think of one or two, but that’s a good exercise nevertheless.
Had to check, you don’t even read what your own sources say.
Honestly, go waste somebody else’s time with your
nonsense. If you really care that much that none of Russia’s demands go answered, go join the foreign legion or something, I’ve head they even help with student loans. Just dont pester some rando correcting your “what guarantees” vagueposting.
Lol, you became a caricature of the same things you criticize others for and then some. Absolutely unhinged reply.
Care to elaborate?
You tell others to “read before you write” but then yourself don’t do it. Like you said, it’s quick google to see that “a lot” of Russians don’t speak English. But instead of doing a quick google to see if you’re full of shit you just write it out anyway. No regards to you own “read before you write” mantra. In fact every place where I specifically asked for proof is a place where you’re either completely wrong or partially wrong.
Then there’s the whole “we’re here to have a discussion, why are you even here to discuss something if you don’t care about it?” as if you’re open to discussion. Except when I actually push back you turn around and go “No point in discussing, nobody else will see it” which is entirely contradictory to US having “discussion”.
Then there’s the deliberately vague part which is how the entire thread started. Your first comment literally “maybe this or maybe that and maybe something else would’ve happened”. Could it be any more vague? I even pressed you on specifically mentioning what you mean by guarantees and your response was somehow even more vague, telling me to read Putins speech and figure them out on my own. You did something similar the second time when I asked proof of a lot of Russians speaking English and you told me to go find the data myself. Any and all attempts for any specificity out of you is met with vagueness or deflection. Which makes it pretty ironic for you to call people questioning your vagueness as vagueposting.
And then you pull out every “debate” lord trick in the book. You say I’m wasting your time, I’m moving goalposts, I’m in bad faith. You call me names, like “debate pervert”. And then you pull a series of “evidence of nonsense” where you’re just raging.
I honestly had a good laugh over your entire comment because it epitomizes your hypocrisy.
What is that number again, I can’t seem to find the wikipedia article on it. \s
Really silly of you to come back and not even look into it. If you want something even more precise, I challenge you to find something called “English proficiency index,” but the entire point there is that you wasted my time asking for source on some incredibly easy to find non-politicised source for data to deflect from your baseless speculation on how “Russians fall for everything” of their own propaganda. I wonder what you’ll think of the countries lower on that index. If you even look for it, that is.
You seem to be mistaken. It’s not that I didn’t read it, it’s that I didn’t feel like adding it in the comment because it’s such easy to find info. But since you seem to be incapable of doing a basic google search to verify, and I think I should be your personal source-fetching bot, I’m stubbornly not giving you the source because I “gave up” on you. On the other hand you also came out with your own claim of “lots don’t speak English,” with no source to contradict me, which is funny because you had a whole week to find one.
I can be petty sometimes, and if you keep pestering me I’ll only be petty from now on because you’re just a silly person with silly behaviour and I ain’t got time in my life to take you seriously.
Everyone has limits, and you seem so stuck on completely failing to grasp even your own sources that I don’t see why I should bother. I usually engage with silly people like you in forums because other, more curious and interested people might read it. Since you’re just being (intentionally?) silly and misreading your own sources on NATO or not remembering the official NATO name for the coup is “Revolution of Dignity,” I don’t think there’s much use to this one here and you’re free to go pester somebody else.
I like how you accuse me of “vagueposting” by being vague in your accusations. My very first comments were being made about they hypothetical guarantees you took so much issue with. You still haven’t shown how those guarantees would’ve not prevented the war or been sane de-escalations.
Since you always seem to forget: de-escalate war on Donnetsk and Luhansk, recognise their independence or at least do proper procedure on it, disband Azov and ban neo-nazi symbology, reinstate Russian as a co-official language, guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO and there’ll be no nukes in Russia’s critical neighbouring countries.
I bet each of those would’ve been welcome there, but alas, NATO only cared about “transparency,” from your own sources, and did not consider a single of Russia’s complaints as valid. Now please, go off again on “what guarantees???” as if I haven’t said that like 4 times now.
Those complaints are in the literal declaration speech ffs, but no I did not tell you to figure out on my own. Go read the comment again, I specifically quoted the specific sections. Your memory seems a bit wonky even though I’ve been apparently living rent-free in your mind for a week now. I don’t live rent-free in my own home, can we switch that? Go re-read the whole thread.
As I said, I actually did put the source there, but lemmy bugged out and didn’t post, which led me to realise I didn’t want to bother with you anymore because you’re playing dumb. This last comment was specifically about how you’re playing dumb so hard you couldn’t even search for English speaker statistics per country, as if it’s some huge gargantuan task. I bet you did that just to distract from the main point of Russians being able to critically analyse text, though you probably don’t even remember that. Do you only know English, by any chance?
Ah yeah, the old debate trick of saying “fuck off, you’re being an arse, go pester somebody else.” I’m not “debating” with you anymore, nor was I ever to begin with. I just want you to find something more worthwhile to do with your life because I don’t have an obligation to correct every single arrogantly ignorant person on the internet, just because they’re feeling lonely. I do it of my own volition when I think I might change or learn something. As I said before, nobody else is watching, and you don’t seem to have much interest in either learning or teaching, so this is indeed “a waste of my time.” You might find more interest if you send a letter to your congressperson.
I guess the internet is weird, people can’t differentiate fun mockery from actual anger. I was mocking how incredibly ignorant you were showing yourself off to be, by either stating complete unsourced nonsense, or asking for sources for things that are literally in the links you provided, or even failing to understand how military alliances work. Obviously since I have no hope for you I won’t actually put the effort to explain why those are problems, I guess you’d just deflect to something else as always.
Yep. I stand by that.
That’s cool, at least something good came out of this whole interaction. I also enjoyed how you came back after the obvious bait of “care to elaborate.” Seems like you really like me. But I don’t like you, go find somebody who reciprocates.
Now, if you reply (and you’re obviously gonna reply, you just can’t leave me be), before your own comment list in your own words every single demand from Russia wrt the war, and whether they’ve been conceded on or ignored. I wonder if you’ll find something, but please don’t come back without making it clear you understand those demands clearly.
In that case all should be good considering the US and NATO did respond, NATO also publicly if I may add.
That applies to both Ukraine joining NATO and previous post-soviet countries joining NATO.
Unless you want to provide with a clear source where NATO calls it a revolution I’m going to claim they didn’t, because I couldn’t find where they said that.
I guess then it should be extremely easy to point where NATO calls it a revolution.
I think you’re seriously underestimating how strong Russian propaganda machine is. I’m sure you’re seen Russia claim that the west betrayed them with the NATO advancement. It’s something that maybe you’ve seen some poor quality western sources also claim, just one example to show that this claim has also spread to the west. That is not true at all. In fact it’s deliberate Russian propaganda
Anyway
Considering the rest of this statement hinges on their ability to speak English my question is, source on a lot of them speaking English?
Well you’re the one going around “guarantees this” and “guarantees that” but at no point do you explicitly state what you mean by guarantees. You listed a few but those were presented more like your personal opinion on what they might be, rather than what you claim they are. But I guess you’re referring to the speech so I guess that at least gives some clearer context on what you meant.
I did, this is false. Your sources stated that the US was backing the coup, not NATO.
Source on the spitballing?
The fuck does this even mean? Ukraine is not in the NATO so NATO shouldn’t allow Ukraine in at all and also move all of its forces out of the Baltic states and Poland? Or did you mean only the last part of those unreasonable claims, that NATO countries shouldn’t support Ukraine? The latter NATO literally cannot fulfill because that is a decision of individual countries.
How is that unrealistic? It’s unrealistic to expect that your borders be respected before there can be peace talks? Especially if the entire war is either at a stalemate or slightly in your favor? I’d understand if there’s a relatively clear prediction that Ukraine will lose, but that’s currently not the case.
You mean with the Russian backed coup in Donetsk and Luhansk? Russia obviously denies that but both region are russian-backed. That war is just as much on Russia as it is on Ukraine. A
Funny.
I actually don’t have an issue with that, I was just pointing out how there are Russians who would be happy to claim opposite. I’m aware that Russians support the war and in my opinion their refusal to oppose the war makes them also responsible for this war. This isn’t a case where they can say it’s their government and they couldn’t do anything, they don’t want to do anything about it either.