ou might have seen that we’ve been defederated from beehaw.org. I think there’s some necessary context to understand what this means to the users on this instance.
How federation works
The way federation works is that the community on beehaw.org is an organization of posts, and you’re subscribed to it despite your account being on lemmy.world. Now someone posts on that community (created on beehaw.org), on which server is that post hosted?
It’s hosted on both! It’s hosted on any instance that has a subscriber. It’s also hosted on lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml, etc. Every instance that has a subscriber is going to have a copy of this post. That’s why if you host your own instance, you’ll often get a ton of text data just in your own server.
And the copies all stay in sync with each other using ActivityPub. So you’re reading the post that’s host on lemmy.world, and someone with an account on beehaw.org is reading the same post on beehaw.org, and the posts are kept in sync via ActivityPub. Whenever someone posts to that community or comments on a post, that data is shared to all the versions across the fediverse, and these versions are kept in sync. So up until 5 hours ago, they were the same post!
“True”-ness
A key concept that will matter in the next section is the idea of a “true” version. Effectively, one version of these posts is the “true” version, that every other community reflects. The “true” version is the one hosted on the instance that hosts the community. So the “true” version of a beehaw.org community post is the one actually hosted on beehaw.org. We have a copy, but ours is only a copy. If you post to our copy, it updates the “true” version on beehaw.org, and then all the other instances look to the “true” version on beehaw to update themselves.
The same goes for communities hosted on lemmy.world or lemmy.ml. Defederation affects how information is shared between instances. If you keep track of where the “true” version is hosted, it becomes a lot easier to understand what is going on.
How defederation works
Now take that example post from earlier, the one on beehaw.org. The “true” version of the post is on beehaw.org but the post is still hosted on both instances (again, it has a copy hosted on all instances). Let’s say someone with an account on beehaw.org comments on that post. That comment is going to be sent to every version of that post via ActivityPub, as the “true” version has been updated. That is, every version EXCEPT lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. So users on lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works won’t get that comment, because we’ve been defederated from beehaw.org. If we write a comment, it will only be visible from accounts on lemmy.world, because we posted to a copy, but our copy is now out of sync with the “true” version. So we can appear to interact with the post, but those interactions are ONLY visible by other lemmy.world accounts, since our comments aren’t send to other versions. As the “true” version is hosted on beehaw, and we no longer get beehaw updates due to defederation, we will not see comments from ANY other community on those posts (including from other defederated instances like sh.itjust.works).
The same goes for posting to beehaw communities. We can still do that. However, the “true” version of those communities are the ones on beehaw, so our posts will not be shared to other instances via ActivityPub. And all of this is true for Beehaw users with our communities. Beehaw users can continue to see and interact with Lemmy.world communities, but those interactions are only visible to other Beehaw users, since the “true” versions of the Lemmy.world communities (the ones sent to/synced with every other instance) is the Lemmy.world one.
Communities on other instances, for example lemmy.ml, are unaffected by this. Lemmy.world and beehaw.org users will still be able to interact with those communities, but posts/comments from lemmy.world users won’t be visible to beehaw.org users, as defederation prevents our posts/comments from being sent to the version of these posts hosted on beehaw.org. However, as the “true” version is the one on the third instance, we can still see everything from beehaw.org users. So we see a more filled in version than the beehaw users.
Why can I still see posts/comments from beehaw users?
Until they defederated us, posts/comments were being sent to lemmy.world, so we can see everything from before defederation. After defederation, we are no longer receiving or sending updates. So there are now multiple versions of those posts.
Why can I still interact with beehaw communities?
This won’t ever stop. You’ll notice that all posts after defederation are only from lemmy.world users. You won’t see posts/comments from ANY other instance (including instances that ) on beehaw.org communities.
Those communities will quickly suck for us, as we’re only talking to other lemmy.world users. Your posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. I highly recommend just unsubscribing from those communities, since they’re pretty pointless for us to be in right now.
Why do I still see comments from beehaw users on lemmy.world communities?
Again, comments from before defederation were still sent to us. After defederation, it will no longer be possible for beehaw users to interact with the “true” version of lemmy.world communities. Their posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. They also aren’t getting updates from any other lemmy, as the “true” version of those communities is on our instance.
Why do I see posts/comments from beehaw users on communities outside lemmy.world and beehaw.org?
That’s because the “true” version of those posts is outside beehaw. So we get updates from those posts. And lemmy.world didn’t defederate beehaw, so posts/comments from beehaw users can still come to versions hosted on lemmy.world.
The reverse is not true. Because beehaw defederate lemmy.world, any post/comment from a lemmy.world users will NOT be sent to the beehaw version of the post.
This seems like it’s worse for beehaw users than for us?
Yes. In my opinion, this is an extraordinarily dumb act by the beehaw instance owners. It’s worse for beehaw users than for us, and will likely result in many beehaw users leaving that instance. They said in their post that this is a nuke, but I don’t think they fully assessed the blast area. Based on their post, I don’t think they fully understand what defederation does.
Yeah I did. That’s why I think they don’t fully understand what defederation entails. It doesn’t accomplish the goals they set out in their decision post, and does have a whole bunch of knock on effects (for their own users) that they don’t address at all.
@AgentGoldfish Actually, i think you don’t understand what defederation really means.
Heck, it’s a completely normal and legal act in the #fediverse. Just search for the fediblock hashtag and find out.
All those defederations have their reasons and while they surely partition the “remaining fediverse” on one way or another, they actually establish the resilience to keep our shared virtual living room free of assholes, racists, fascists and other ppl we don’t actually like to read alldays in _our_ stream…
So … Do i really need to cite XKCD here?
Yes, it is _really_ that simple.
Like I told the other dude, I don’t care what beehaw does. I was just explaining the consequences of this action for the users on this instance. Why are you even here? You aren’t in this instance.
I think this action is bad for the adoption of lemmy, that’s why I don’t like it. Beyond that, the beehaw admins can do what they like. If they want to nuke their walled garden/prison, that’s their prerogative. I’m just saying what a bad idea I think it is.
You are misinforming people based on your own bias and agenda.
We’ve got a real community builder here folks, just what the fediverse needs.
@AgentGoldfish Well … i’m in the #fediverse … and while lemmy actually fails to deliver the rest of this thread over to my friendica instance…
We are still all together in the same #fediverse.
So i’m talking to you as fedinaut and netizen of … the fediverse.
Like anyone can do…
That’s called ‘federation’ ;)
Maybe read my post on lemmy.world (or another lemmy instance) that all of these are comments on before you make a bunch of assumptions.
@AgentGoldfish I don’t assume _that_ much. I see you complaining about beehaw admins making the fediverse worse for their users… because?
You fail to deliver any reason, why they should tolerate the bulk of your users violating their netiquette.
That’s where and why i call that whining.
Like: @[email protected] lemmy.world/comment/206887 says here.
It is about choice and you have absolutely no right at all to attack their decision and rights in this way…
You call the action they did as “extraordinarily dumb”.
I told you, that the possibility is way higher, that the dumb decision was on your side in the first place.
Dude, it’s funny that you are “defending” beehaws decision but literally sound like the kind of person that cause them to do it in the first place. Not saying that you are, but you definitely give that kind of vibe to me with the way you comment and format your “arguments”.
Also, don’t you understand that both can be true: beehaw admins having honest and best intentions for their own community but also not understanding fully the consequences of their actions? It doesn’t have to be either one or the other.
They even said that they are not very technical and it seems they are aware they might be throwing the baby with the bath water for now until they figure things out.
It is just being pointed out that they might be making a mistake especially that this post is addressed to lemmy.world and other federated instances not really at beehaw (although they will probably be aware of it).
which was like the point of federation, at least with Lemmy; it gives instance owners the choice of who to associate with
@AgentGoldfish Communities and instances, especially here in the #fediverse, have their own netiquettes and rules… You obviously got called out for disregarding the rules of other instances…
Stop whining and do something about it. ;)
I obviously didn’t. I like how you just assuming I’m some internet asshole. All I did was write out an explanation for the users of this instance because there was a lot of confusion about what defederation means. Maybe stop being a jerk and making assumptions?
I never said beehaw wasn’t allowed to do what they’re doing, of course they are. You’re the one making that assumption. I said that this will result in more damage to beehaw than to lemmy.world, and it will do more damage still to lemmy as a whole.