I didn’t get the first part, nor the other thread if you replied to it. It seems we are hitting the limit of kbin/lemmy at the moment with the bugs it currently has.
you’d need to be far outside the traditional political spectrum to think anything negative about the American flag.
I don’t think so. The american flag represents the countries history as well, and there are many dark sections of history to this country. You don’t have to be that far from the center to recognize that.
as what’s truly deserved is far more violent and lethal
You are suggesting the death penalty for people’s beliefs. That is antithetical to the principles of our nation.
We’ll see those numbers quickly return to a natural 100% “love it” if we enforce “love it or leave it”.
And it would be immensely harmful to the country to do that. Once you permit the government to punish people for their beliefs, you open the flood gates to a tyrannical government.
Um, no. We all have a natural relationship with God
There is simply no evidence for that. And forcing children to partake in religion is a form of forcing religion. There isn’t any way I can explain it other than that, as this is an issue so straightforward as ‘square goes in square hole’.
it’s just acknowledging that we’re a Christian country at heart, and we always have been, founded on Christian values
That is objectively false.
“As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion" ~ Treaty of Tripoli; initiated under President George Washington, 1796, signed into law by President John Adams, 1797, ratified unanimously by the Senate, 1797, published in full in all 13 states, with no record of complaint or dissent.
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship… I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.” –Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” –James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774
“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?”– James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795
“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people… A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785 .
“He had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term– he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects.” –Supreme Court Justice David Davis, on Abraham Lincoln
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” –First Amendment, Constitution of the United States
“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible…Some books on Deism fell into my hands…It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist.”
-Benjamin Franklin, “Toward the Mystery” (autobiography)
"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice…he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers…Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did. -Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799
“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man”- Thomas Jefferson
“There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.”- Thomas Jefferson
“Lighthouses are more useful than churches.”- Ben Franklin7. “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”- Ben Franklin
“In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it.”- Ben Franklin
“This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it”- John Adams
“Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.”- Thomas Paine
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”-Thomas Paine
“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”- Thomas Paine
“The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession.”- Abraham Lincoln
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”- James Madison
“In no instance have the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.” ― James Madison
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. " ~ Thomas Jefferson
That’s wholly incorrect.
It’s a pledge (promise) of allegiance (loyalty). My description of the pledge is accurate.
If you find that dystopian or creepy
I find it dystopian and creepy because it’s the same sort of thing that North Korea does, China does, and Nazi Germany did. Forcing people to swear loyalty to the state is a gross misuse of the power of the government.
I have to wonder if you know your neighbors very well. Honest question: do you?
That depends upon what you mean by “neighbors”, and “know”. Sorry, that’s just a very broad question. Can you elaborate?
I didn’t get the first part, nor the other thread if you replied to it. It seems we are hitting the limit of kbin/lemmy at the moment with the bugs it currently has.
[A list of twenty-two, count 'em twenty two quotes meant to demonstrate that it’s objectively false to claim that “we’re a Christian country at heart, and we always have been, founded on Christian values”]
Did they teach you to keep a file of such quotes in your atheist training seminars? If your goal was to overwhelm me, congrats, you succeeded. This conversation is already so long and unwieldy that there’s no way I’m going to address each of these. Suffice it to say that you’re wrong about this, and a suitable reply would be book length. And I’m not talking about a small or medium-sized book.
I will just briefly address the first one to mention that it’s from an international treaty with a Muslim nation to protect American lives. We told them what they wanted to hear, to get them to agree. So goes international treaties. They’re rhetoric devised to achieve political goals, and they mean nothing beyond that. Yes, we assured Muslims that our government is not founded on Christianity, and if you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Each of these quotes you offered either has a similarly simple rebuttal, or is actually correct without implying what you think it implies. Some of them are taken out of important context. I’ll leave it at that.
I find it dystopian and creepy because it’s the same sort of thing that North Korea does, China does, and Nazi Germany did. Forcing people to swear loyalty to the state is a gross misuse of the power of the government.
Listen, we agree that North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany are all bad countries, and we wouldn’t want to imitate them. So let’s at least take a moment to appreciate our agreement.
As for the alleged similarity of our Pledge, it’s only superficially similar in that citizens are naturally loyal to their countries, right or wrong. Yes, the Bellamy Salute looked a whole lot like our enemies’ patriotic gestures, but even though that similarity was superficial, we changed it.
The elephant in the room is that the US is at heart nothing whatsoever like any other country, including the ethnostates of North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany. We’re so dissimilar from other countries that it’s wrong to compare us in almost any way at all. No other country in the world was founded in an act of revolution formed as an appeal to heaven.
[Replying to “I have to wonder if you know your neighbors very well. Honest question: do you?”] That depends upon what you mean by “neighbors”, and “know”. Sorry, that’s just a very broad question. Can you elaborate?
As for what I mean by “neighbor”, I refer you to Luke 10:29-37:
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
As for “know”, it’s a broad spectrum ranging from “stranger” to “wife”. I’m asking how well you know them, and it could be anywhere along that spectrum.
Did they teach you to keep a file of such quotes in your atheist training seminars? If your goal was to overwhelm me, congrats, you succeeded.
There were no such seminars, and my intention is not to overwhelm. It’s simply silly to say that the united states is a christian nation when the founders were very clear that it wasn’t.
I will just briefly address the first one to mention that it’s from an international treaty with a Muslim nation to protect American lives.
The reasons why it was signed isn’t relevant given the supremacy clause of the united states which states that treaties signed by congress/the president are part of US law. The treaty is therefore the law of the land, and it says that we were not founded as a christian nation. The law says we are not a christian nation. The constitution effectively says so as well with the establishment clause.
As for the alleged similarity of our Pledge, it’s only superficially similar in that citizens are naturally loyal to their countries, right or wrong.
I’d argue it’s more than superficial because it is forced upon impressionable, young minds. But even if it was only superficial, it is sufficiently bad enough of an image to be creepy.
Yes, the Bellamy Salute looked a whole lot like our enemies’ patriotic gestures, but even though that similarity was superficial, we changed it.
They were/are pretty much identical. And despite the change, the rest of the creepiness of it persists.
We’re so dissimilar from other countries that it’s wrong to compare us in almost any way at all. No other country in the world was founded in an act of revolution formed as an appeal to heaven.
There is this sales tactic that some companies use, they’ll say something along the lines of “Nobody has a bigger selection than us!” or “We have the highest rated customer service in our industry”. They say some thing that they are technically correct about, but it misses the bigger picture. All countries are unique in some way, literally any country could say “no other country X”, because all countries have at least something unique about them.
As for the “formed as an appeal to heaven” bit, I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration. Religion was definitely involved, but if the British hadn’t used their government to take so much control over the citizens in the colonies, if they had found the money for their taxes elsewhere, if they had actually listened to the people and tried to make them happy instead of killing them and punishing dissenting opinion, then there wouldn’t have been a revolution. The problem the founders had with the British was mostly not religious in nature. The declaration of independence for instance, basically everything in it is secular. The only mention of anything religious is by mentioning our unalienable/god given rights, and it was the violation of those rights that was the problem, not religious differences.
As for what I mean by “neighbor”, I refer you to Luke 10:29-37:
As for “know”, it’s a broad spectrum ranging from “stranger” to “wife”. I’m asking how well you know them, and it could be anywhere along that spectrum.
So if I understand correctly, you mean to ask how much charity I do?
I paused before, so here’s the remainder of my reply:
I don’t think so. The american flag represents the countries history as well, and there are many dark sections of history to this country. You don’t have to be that far from the center to recognize that.
You have to be actively seeking out negativity, because it’s nearly impossible to find unless you go looking for it.
The personality type of leftists (admittedly I’m painting with a very broad brush here) is the type of person who feels comfortable when they’re criticizing things. I think it makes them feel smart, or better than whatever (or whoever) they’re criticizing, or maybe the motivation varies from person to person, but whatever the reason, leftists typically seem to find comfort in criticism.
One of the most visible manifestations of this preference is the rise of CRT, which is like a cancer spreading to all of our institutions. CRT is a part of Critical Theory, the broad set of philosophical works lauded by leftists for attempting to “deconstruct” western civilization. To a normal conservative American, the very fact that Critical Theory (CRT included) has the word “critical” in its name indicates that it’s an evil way of thinking, seeking out negative thoughts instead of praising God. The fact that the theory lives up to its disturbing name, and actually uses criticism as its core methodology, only goes to show that this is one of those cases in which it’s valid to judge a book by its cover.
To normal conservative Americans, we know America is blessed because our Lord is God. Our history is chock full of divine providence. When you criticize America, you criticize God. Criticism is an evil way of thinking. That’s not to say we’re perfect, at all, because we’re all sinners. But as we each repent for our individual sins, seek continued favor from God, and work to do God’s will on earth as it’s done in heaven, we know that our fate is in God’s hands, so we choose faith and love where leftist criticizers choose discontent, anger, and hatred.
You are suggesting the death penalty for people’s beliefs. That is antithetical to the principles of our nation.
I certainly wasn’t suggesting lethal injection. I was looking back to our nation’s early practices. Someone might get tarred and feathered if he deserved it, while someone else might be drawn and quartered. We burned witches at the stake. These are the principles of our nation, and our early history that gained us favor with God. So it’s certainly not antithetical to the principles of our nation at all. But it is antithetical to God’s will for us to practice forgiveness, which is why I instead call for compassionate deportation.
Once you permit the government to punish people for their beliefs, you open the flood gates to a tyrannical government.
I do agree with you on this, believe it or not. I enjoy this discussion because I enjoy the free interplay of beliefs. I wouldn’t want you silenced.
But at the same time, I believe there’s a limit to how far it extends. Just as you can’t legally yell “fire” in a crowded theater (remember crowded theaters?), I see the toxic hatred for America as being principally unwelcome.
And I’m not really advocating for the government to do anything, other than say “if somebody hates America then we decline to offer that person any police protection for their natural rights.”
There is simply no evidence for [us each having a natural relationship with God]. And forcing children to partake in religion is a form of forcing religion. There isn’t any way I can explain it other than that, as this is an issue so straightforward as ‘square goes in square hole’.
There’s an abundance of evidence for it, everywhere I look. Our Creator put us here for a purpose. To ignore that fact is evil. We are responsible for raising children to become moral, and that’s impossible without a firm reliance on Christ. Again, you’re either with God or you’re with Satan. To raise a child without emphasizing God’s role in everything we do and think is to raise that child as an unknowing agent of the Beast.
You have to be actively seeking out negativity, because it’s nearly impossible to find unless you go looking for it.
We had an entire civil war about whether black people were actually people, and it was one of the biggest events in our nation’s history. It is far from impossible, and I don’t believe I am seeking out negativity. I think I am seeing things as accurately as I can within my limited power.
The personality type of leftists
I think everything you said here could just as easily apply to conservatives. You spend the entirety of the next two paragraphs criticizing leftists/CRT.
the word “critical” in its name indicates that it’s an evil way of thinking
Critical thinking is a good thing, not a bad one. It is what allows us to see what is wrong so we can make it better. You can’t learn from your mistakes if you think you have none.
Someone might get tarred and feathered if he deserved it, while someone else might be drawn and quartered. We burned witches at the stake.
All of which were horrifying ways to die, cruel and unusual punishments, and therefore an 8th amendment violation.
These are the principles of our nation
You keep saying that these violations of the constitution are the principles of our nation. Doesn’t that seem a little silly to you?
compassionate deportation.
Deportation of U.S. citizens is in no way compassionate.
Just as you can’t legally yell “fire” in a crowded theater (remember crowded theaters?), I see the toxic hatred for America as being principally unwelcome.
The reason you can’t legally yell “fire” is because it causes a direct and present danger because of the potential of a stampede. Hating america for what it currently is and wishing it to be better is nowhere near the same.
“if somebody hates America then we decline to offer that person any police protection for their natural rights.”
And that would make them a target for criminals, which would again be an 8th amendment violation.
There’s an abundance of evidence for it, everywhere I look. Our Creator put us here for a purpose. To ignore that fact is evil.
“Looking everywhere” is not a form of evidence.
and that’s impossible without a firm reliance on Christ.
Under your definition of what’s moral, sure that may be true, but I don’t think you hold a reasonable view of what is moral.
I don’t believe I am seeking out negativity. I think I am seeing things as accurately as I can within my limited power.
When a demon suggests a negative thought to you, do you turn to God? Or do you reject God and allow the demon’s suggestion to fester in your mind? Do you believe the demon when he claims there is no God? Do you find contentment of “seeing things as accurately as you can” when you spend time focusing on negativity?
Critical thinking is a good thing, not a bad one. It is what allows us to see what is wrong so we can make it better. You can’t learn from your mistakes if you think you have none.
I never claimed we have no mistakes. We are all sinners. That’s why we need to repent and be saved.
That has nothing to do with being critical. See Proverbs 2, which I almost want to quote in full here, but I’ll leave it at a link.
therefore an 8th amendment violation
Technically the truth. But the Bill of Rights is only intended to protect Americans. It is my contention that anyone who hates America is evidently not American.
Deportation of U.S. citizens is in no way compassionate.
Correct. But someone who hates America is not a valid citizen.
The reason you can’t legally yell “fire” is because it causes a direct and present danger because of the potential of a stampede. Hating america for what it currently is and wishing it to be better is nowhere near the same.
A hatred for America is no less of a clear and present danger. A person who hates America is deep into a terrorist mindset.
Wanting one’s country to be “better” is universally agreeable. But when it comes from a perspective of hatred, there’s no way to trust the subjective meaning of “better”.
America’s essential culture and values were cemented in 1776. The only way we can make it better is to undo all ways in which we’ve strayed from our essential culture and values.
And that would make them a target for criminals
The word “criminal” means someone who breaks the law, for example illegal immigrants. If the government were to decline to protect an individual’s rights, then it would not be a criminal act to forcefully deport said individual, say by means of a catapult.
“Looking everywhere” is not a form of evidence.
You sound like a blind fool attempting to refute the notion that anything could possibly be seen. You are surrounded by abundant evidence, but you don’t recognize it as such because you haven’t yet accepted Christ.
Under your definition of what’s moral, sure that may be true, but I don’t think you hold a reasonable view of what is moral.
I am no arbiter of morality. I look to God for His guidance. No one who rejects God could possibly know His law. It would be hubris to suppose otherwise.
When a demon suggests a negative thought to you, do you turn to God?
I don’t believe in demons. My thoughts are my own.
Do you find contentment of “seeing things as accurately as you can” when you spend time focusing on negativity?
I don’t think I focus on negativity all that much to be honest. I think the version of me that you are interacting with is one in which you need to account for survivorship bias. We deeply disagree on basically everything, and so simply as a part of this conversation we will both be expressing negativity. You’ve done so about atheists, the LGBT, secularists, leftists, etc. That’s kinda just how these conversations work out.
I never claimed we have no mistakes.
Then we need to take a look at the negative to fix it. You can’t fix something that you don’t understand.
It is my contention that anyone who hates America is evidently not American.
Correct. But someone who hates America is not a valid citizen.
That is not what the constitution says.
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
A hatred for America is no less of a clear and present danger. A person who hates America is deep into a terrorist mindset.
Neither of these things are true. When children state that they hate their parents, does that mean that they are a clear and present danger? Does it mean that they intend violence? No, it simply means that they wish their parents were different.
The only way we can make it better is to undo all ways in which we’ve strayed from our essential culture and values.
The founders intended for the law of the country to adapt to change because there was no way to foresee it’s future.
If the government were to decline to protect an individual’s rights, then it would not be a criminal act to forcefully deport said individual, say by means of a catapult.
It would be a criminal act under current constitutional law. Especially the catapult part.
You are surrounded by abundant evidence, but you don’t recognize it as such because you haven’t yet accepted Christ.
That’s how the burden of proof works. The evidence has to come first, then belief. Anything less is irrational.
No one who rejects God could possibly know His law.
No one who “rejects god” thinks he or his law exists.
I didn’t get the first part, nor the other thread if you replied to it. It seems we are hitting the limit of kbin/lemmy at the moment with the bugs it currently has.
I don’t think so. The american flag represents the countries history as well, and there are many dark sections of history to this country. You don’t have to be that far from the center to recognize that.
You are suggesting the death penalty for people’s beliefs. That is antithetical to the principles of our nation.
And it would be immensely harmful to the country to do that. Once you permit the government to punish people for their beliefs, you open the flood gates to a tyrannical government.
There is simply no evidence for that. And forcing children to partake in religion is a form of forcing religion. There isn’t any way I can explain it other than that, as this is an issue so straightforward as ‘square goes in square hole’.
That is objectively false.
“As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion" ~ Treaty of Tripoli; initiated under President George Washington, 1796, signed into law by President John Adams, 1797, ratified unanimously by the Senate, 1797, published in full in all 13 states, with no record of complaint or dissent.
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship… I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.” –Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” –James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774
“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?”– James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795
“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people… A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785 .
“He had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term– he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects.” –Supreme Court Justice David Davis, on Abraham Lincoln
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” –First Amendment, Constitution of the United States
“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible…Some books on Deism fell into my hands…It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist.” -Benjamin Franklin, “Toward the Mystery” (autobiography)
"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice…he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers…Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did. -Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799
“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man”- Thomas Jefferson
“There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.”- Thomas Jefferson
“Lighthouses are more useful than churches.”- Ben Franklin7. “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”- Ben Franklin
“In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it.”- Ben Franklin
“This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it”- John Adams
“Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.”- Thomas Paine
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”-Thomas Paine
“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”- Thomas Paine
“The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession.”- Abraham Lincoln
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”- James Madison
“In no instance have the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.” ― James Madison
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. " ~ Thomas Jefferson
It’s a pledge (promise) of allegiance (loyalty). My description of the pledge is accurate.
I find it dystopian and creepy because it’s the same sort of thing that North Korea does, China does, and Nazi Germany did. Forcing people to swear loyalty to the state is a gross misuse of the power of the government.
That depends upon what you mean by “neighbors”, and “know”. Sorry, that’s just a very broad question. Can you elaborate?
Do these work?
I’ll pause there for now.
Unpause, part 2 of 2:
Did they teach you to keep a file of such quotes in your atheist training seminars? If your goal was to overwhelm me, congrats, you succeeded. This conversation is already so long and unwieldy that there’s no way I’m going to address each of these. Suffice it to say that you’re wrong about this, and a suitable reply would be book length. And I’m not talking about a small or medium-sized book.
I will just briefly address the first one to mention that it’s from an international treaty with a Muslim nation to protect American lives. We told them what they wanted to hear, to get them to agree. So goes international treaties. They’re rhetoric devised to achieve political goals, and they mean nothing beyond that. Yes, we assured Muslims that our government is not founded on Christianity, and if you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Each of these quotes you offered either has a similarly simple rebuttal, or is actually correct without implying what you think it implies. Some of them are taken out of important context. I’ll leave it at that.
Listen, we agree that North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany are all bad countries, and we wouldn’t want to imitate them. So let’s at least take a moment to appreciate our agreement.
As for the alleged similarity of our Pledge, it’s only superficially similar in that citizens are naturally loyal to their countries, right or wrong. Yes, the Bellamy Salute looked a whole lot like our enemies’ patriotic gestures, but even though that similarity was superficial, we changed it.
The elephant in the room is that the US is at heart nothing whatsoever like any other country, including the ethnostates of North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany. We’re so dissimilar from other countries that it’s wrong to compare us in almost any way at all. No other country in the world was founded in an act of revolution formed as an appeal to heaven.
As for what I mean by “neighbor”, I refer you to Luke 10:29-37:
As for “know”, it’s a broad spectrum ranging from “stranger” to “wife”. I’m asking how well you know them, and it could be anywhere along that spectrum.
There were no such seminars, and my intention is not to overwhelm. It’s simply silly to say that the united states is a christian nation when the founders were very clear that it wasn’t.
The reasons why it was signed isn’t relevant given the supremacy clause of the united states which states that treaties signed by congress/the president are part of US law. The treaty is therefore the law of the land, and it says that we were not founded as a christian nation. The law says we are not a christian nation. The constitution effectively says so as well with the establishment clause.
I’d argue it’s more than superficial because it is forced upon impressionable, young minds. But even if it was only superficial, it is sufficiently bad enough of an image to be creepy.
They were/are pretty much identical. And despite the change, the rest of the creepiness of it persists.
There is this sales tactic that some companies use, they’ll say something along the lines of “Nobody has a bigger selection than us!” or “We have the highest rated customer service in our industry”. They say some thing that they are technically correct about, but it misses the bigger picture. All countries are unique in some way, literally any country could say “no other country X”, because all countries have at least something unique about them.
As for the “formed as an appeal to heaven” bit, I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration. Religion was definitely involved, but if the British hadn’t used their government to take so much control over the citizens in the colonies, if they had found the money for their taxes elsewhere, if they had actually listened to the people and tried to make them happy instead of killing them and punishing dissenting opinion, then there wouldn’t have been a revolution. The problem the founders had with the British was mostly not religious in nature. The declaration of independence for instance, basically everything in it is secular. The only mention of anything religious is by mentioning our unalienable/god given rights, and it was the violation of those rights that was the problem, not religious differences.
So if I understand correctly, you mean to ask how much charity I do?
Unpause, part 1 of 2:
I paused before, so here’s the remainder of my reply:
You have to be actively seeking out negativity, because it’s nearly impossible to find unless you go looking for it.
The personality type of leftists (admittedly I’m painting with a very broad brush here) is the type of person who feels comfortable when they’re criticizing things. I think it makes them feel smart, or better than whatever (or whoever) they’re criticizing, or maybe the motivation varies from person to person, but whatever the reason, leftists typically seem to find comfort in criticism.
One of the most visible manifestations of this preference is the rise of CRT, which is like a cancer spreading to all of our institutions. CRT is a part of Critical Theory, the broad set of philosophical works lauded by leftists for attempting to “deconstruct” western civilization. To a normal conservative American, the very fact that Critical Theory (CRT included) has the word “critical” in its name indicates that it’s an evil way of thinking, seeking out negative thoughts instead of praising God. The fact that the theory lives up to its disturbing name, and actually uses criticism as its core methodology, only goes to show that this is one of those cases in which it’s valid to judge a book by its cover.
To normal conservative Americans, we know America is blessed because our Lord is God. Our history is chock full of divine providence. When you criticize America, you criticize God. Criticism is an evil way of thinking. That’s not to say we’re perfect, at all, because we’re all sinners. But as we each repent for our individual sins, seek continued favor from God, and work to do God’s will on earth as it’s done in heaven, we know that our fate is in God’s hands, so we choose faith and love where leftist criticizers choose discontent, anger, and hatred.
I certainly wasn’t suggesting lethal injection. I was looking back to our nation’s early practices. Someone might get tarred and feathered if he deserved it, while someone else might be drawn and quartered. We burned witches at the stake. These are the principles of our nation, and our early history that gained us favor with God. So it’s certainly not antithetical to the principles of our nation at all. But it is antithetical to God’s will for us to practice forgiveness, which is why I instead call for compassionate deportation.
I do agree with you on this, believe it or not. I enjoy this discussion because I enjoy the free interplay of beliefs. I wouldn’t want you silenced.
But at the same time, I believe there’s a limit to how far it extends. Just as you can’t legally yell “fire” in a crowded theater (remember crowded theaters?), I see the toxic hatred for America as being principally unwelcome.
And I’m not really advocating for the government to do anything, other than say “if somebody hates America then we decline to offer that person any police protection for their natural rights.”
There’s an abundance of evidence for it, everywhere I look. Our Creator put us here for a purpose. To ignore that fact is evil. We are responsible for raising children to become moral, and that’s impossible without a firm reliance on Christ. Again, you’re either with God or you’re with Satan. To raise a child without emphasizing God’s role in everything we do and think is to raise that child as an unknowing agent of the Beast.
We had an entire civil war about whether black people were actually people, and it was one of the biggest events in our nation’s history. It is far from impossible, and I don’t believe I am seeking out negativity. I think I am seeing things as accurately as I can within my limited power.
I think everything you said here could just as easily apply to conservatives. You spend the entirety of the next two paragraphs criticizing leftists/CRT.
Critical thinking is a good thing, not a bad one. It is what allows us to see what is wrong so we can make it better. You can’t learn from your mistakes if you think you have none.
All of which were horrifying ways to die, cruel and unusual punishments, and therefore an 8th amendment violation.
You keep saying that these violations of the constitution are the principles of our nation. Doesn’t that seem a little silly to you?
Deportation of U.S. citizens is in no way compassionate.
The reason you can’t legally yell “fire” is because it causes a direct and present danger because of the potential of a stampede. Hating america for what it currently is and wishing it to be better is nowhere near the same.
And that would make them a target for criminals, which would again be an 8th amendment violation.
“Looking everywhere” is not a form of evidence.
Under your definition of what’s moral, sure that may be true, but I don’t think you hold a reasonable view of what is moral.
When a demon suggests a negative thought to you, do you turn to God? Or do you reject God and allow the demon’s suggestion to fester in your mind? Do you believe the demon when he claims there is no God? Do you find contentment of “seeing things as accurately as you can” when you spend time focusing on negativity?
I never claimed we have no mistakes. We are all sinners. That’s why we need to repent and be saved.
That has nothing to do with being critical. See Proverbs 2, which I almost want to quote in full here, but I’ll leave it at a link.
Technically the truth. But the Bill of Rights is only intended to protect Americans. It is my contention that anyone who hates America is evidently not American.
Correct. But someone who hates America is not a valid citizen.
A hatred for America is no less of a clear and present danger. A person who hates America is deep into a terrorist mindset.
Wanting one’s country to be “better” is universally agreeable. But when it comes from a perspective of hatred, there’s no way to trust the subjective meaning of “better”.
America’s essential culture and values were cemented in 1776. The only way we can make it better is to undo all ways in which we’ve strayed from our essential culture and values.
The word “criminal” means someone who breaks the law, for example illegal immigrants. If the government were to decline to protect an individual’s rights, then it would not be a criminal act to forcefully deport said individual, say by means of a catapult.
You sound like a blind fool attempting to refute the notion that anything could possibly be seen. You are surrounded by abundant evidence, but you don’t recognize it as such because you haven’t yet accepted Christ.
I am no arbiter of morality. I look to God for His guidance. No one who rejects God could possibly know His law. It would be hubris to suppose otherwise.
I don’t believe in demons. My thoughts are my own.
I don’t think I focus on negativity all that much to be honest. I think the version of me that you are interacting with is one in which you need to account for survivorship bias. We deeply disagree on basically everything, and so simply as a part of this conversation we will both be expressing negativity. You’ve done so about atheists, the LGBT, secularists, leftists, etc. That’s kinda just how these conversations work out.
Then we need to take a look at the negative to fix it. You can’t fix something that you don’t understand.
That is not what the constitution says.
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
Neither of these things are true. When children state that they hate their parents, does that mean that they are a clear and present danger? Does it mean that they intend violence? No, it simply means that they wish their parents were different.
The founders intended for the law of the country to adapt to change because there was no way to foresee it’s future.
It would be a criminal act under current constitutional law. Especially the catapult part.
That’s how the burden of proof works. The evidence has to come first, then belief. Anything less is irrational.
No one who “rejects god” thinks he or his law exists.