[A list of twenty-two, count 'em twenty two quotes meant to demonstrate that it’s objectively false to claim that “we’re a Christian country at heart, and we always have been, founded on Christian values”]
Did they teach you to keep a file of such quotes in your atheist training seminars? If your goal was to overwhelm me, congrats, you succeeded. This conversation is already so long and unwieldy that there’s no way I’m going to address each of these. Suffice it to say that you’re wrong about this, and a suitable reply would be book length. And I’m not talking about a small or medium-sized book.
I will just briefly address the first one to mention that it’s from an international treaty with a Muslim nation to protect American lives. We told them what they wanted to hear, to get them to agree. So goes international treaties. They’re rhetoric devised to achieve political goals, and they mean nothing beyond that. Yes, we assured Muslims that our government is not founded on Christianity, and if you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Each of these quotes you offered either has a similarly simple rebuttal, or is actually correct without implying what you think it implies. Some of them are taken out of important context. I’ll leave it at that.
I find it dystopian and creepy because it’s the same sort of thing that North Korea does, China does, and Nazi Germany did. Forcing people to swear loyalty to the state is a gross misuse of the power of the government.
Listen, we agree that North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany are all bad countries, and we wouldn’t want to imitate them. So let’s at least take a moment to appreciate our agreement.
As for the alleged similarity of our Pledge, it’s only superficially similar in that citizens are naturally loyal to their countries, right or wrong. Yes, the Bellamy Salute looked a whole lot like our enemies’ patriotic gestures, but even though that similarity was superficial, we changed it.
The elephant in the room is that the US is at heart nothing whatsoever like any other country, including the ethnostates of North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany. We’re so dissimilar from other countries that it’s wrong to compare us in almost any way at all. No other country in the world was founded in an act of revolution formed as an appeal to heaven.
[Replying to “I have to wonder if you know your neighbors very well. Honest question: do you?”] That depends upon what you mean by “neighbors”, and “know”. Sorry, that’s just a very broad question. Can you elaborate?
As for what I mean by “neighbor”, I refer you to Luke 10:29-37:
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
As for “know”, it’s a broad spectrum ranging from “stranger” to “wife”. I’m asking how well you know them, and it could be anywhere along that spectrum.
Did they teach you to keep a file of such quotes in your atheist training seminars? If your goal was to overwhelm me, congrats, you succeeded.
There were no such seminars, and my intention is not to overwhelm. It’s simply silly to say that the united states is a christian nation when the founders were very clear that it wasn’t.
I will just briefly address the first one to mention that it’s from an international treaty with a Muslim nation to protect American lives.
The reasons why it was signed isn’t relevant given the supremacy clause of the united states which states that treaties signed by congress/the president are part of US law. The treaty is therefore the law of the land, and it says that we were not founded as a christian nation. The law says we are not a christian nation. The constitution effectively says so as well with the establishment clause.
As for the alleged similarity of our Pledge, it’s only superficially similar in that citizens are naturally loyal to their countries, right or wrong.
I’d argue it’s more than superficial because it is forced upon impressionable, young minds. But even if it was only superficial, it is sufficiently bad enough of an image to be creepy.
Yes, the Bellamy Salute looked a whole lot like our enemies’ patriotic gestures, but even though that similarity was superficial, we changed it.
They were/are pretty much identical. And despite the change, the rest of the creepiness of it persists.
We’re so dissimilar from other countries that it’s wrong to compare us in almost any way at all. No other country in the world was founded in an act of revolution formed as an appeal to heaven.
There is this sales tactic that some companies use, they’ll say something along the lines of “Nobody has a bigger selection than us!” or “We have the highest rated customer service in our industry”. They say some thing that they are technically correct about, but it misses the bigger picture. All countries are unique in some way, literally any country could say “no other country X”, because all countries have at least something unique about them.
As for the “formed as an appeal to heaven” bit, I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration. Religion was definitely involved, but if the British hadn’t used their government to take so much control over the citizens in the colonies, if they had found the money for their taxes elsewhere, if they had actually listened to the people and tried to make them happy instead of killing them and punishing dissenting opinion, then there wouldn’t have been a revolution. The problem the founders had with the British was mostly not religious in nature. The declaration of independence for instance, basically everything in it is secular. The only mention of anything religious is by mentioning our unalienable/god given rights, and it was the violation of those rights that was the problem, not religious differences.
As for what I mean by “neighbor”, I refer you to Luke 10:29-37:
As for “know”, it’s a broad spectrum ranging from “stranger” to “wife”. I’m asking how well you know them, and it could be anywhere along that spectrum.
So if I understand correctly, you mean to ask how much charity I do?
Unpause, part 2 of 2:
Did they teach you to keep a file of such quotes in your atheist training seminars? If your goal was to overwhelm me, congrats, you succeeded. This conversation is already so long and unwieldy that there’s no way I’m going to address each of these. Suffice it to say that you’re wrong about this, and a suitable reply would be book length. And I’m not talking about a small or medium-sized book.
I will just briefly address the first one to mention that it’s from an international treaty with a Muslim nation to protect American lives. We told them what they wanted to hear, to get them to agree. So goes international treaties. They’re rhetoric devised to achieve political goals, and they mean nothing beyond that. Yes, we assured Muslims that our government is not founded on Christianity, and if you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Each of these quotes you offered either has a similarly simple rebuttal, or is actually correct without implying what you think it implies. Some of them are taken out of important context. I’ll leave it at that.
Listen, we agree that North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany are all bad countries, and we wouldn’t want to imitate them. So let’s at least take a moment to appreciate our agreement.
As for the alleged similarity of our Pledge, it’s only superficially similar in that citizens are naturally loyal to their countries, right or wrong. Yes, the Bellamy Salute looked a whole lot like our enemies’ patriotic gestures, but even though that similarity was superficial, we changed it.
The elephant in the room is that the US is at heart nothing whatsoever like any other country, including the ethnostates of North Korea, China, and Nazi Germany. We’re so dissimilar from other countries that it’s wrong to compare us in almost any way at all. No other country in the world was founded in an act of revolution formed as an appeal to heaven.
As for what I mean by “neighbor”, I refer you to Luke 10:29-37:
As for “know”, it’s a broad spectrum ranging from “stranger” to “wife”. I’m asking how well you know them, and it could be anywhere along that spectrum.
There were no such seminars, and my intention is not to overwhelm. It’s simply silly to say that the united states is a christian nation when the founders were very clear that it wasn’t.
The reasons why it was signed isn’t relevant given the supremacy clause of the united states which states that treaties signed by congress/the president are part of US law. The treaty is therefore the law of the land, and it says that we were not founded as a christian nation. The law says we are not a christian nation. The constitution effectively says so as well with the establishment clause.
I’d argue it’s more than superficial because it is forced upon impressionable, young minds. But even if it was only superficial, it is sufficiently bad enough of an image to be creepy.
They were/are pretty much identical. And despite the change, the rest of the creepiness of it persists.
There is this sales tactic that some companies use, they’ll say something along the lines of “Nobody has a bigger selection than us!” or “We have the highest rated customer service in our industry”. They say some thing that they are technically correct about, but it misses the bigger picture. All countries are unique in some way, literally any country could say “no other country X”, because all countries have at least something unique about them.
As for the “formed as an appeal to heaven” bit, I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration. Religion was definitely involved, but if the British hadn’t used their government to take so much control over the citizens in the colonies, if they had found the money for their taxes elsewhere, if they had actually listened to the people and tried to make them happy instead of killing them and punishing dissenting opinion, then there wouldn’t have been a revolution. The problem the founders had with the British was mostly not religious in nature. The declaration of independence for instance, basically everything in it is secular. The only mention of anything religious is by mentioning our unalienable/god given rights, and it was the violation of those rights that was the problem, not religious differences.
So if I understand correctly, you mean to ask how much charity I do?