ou might have seen that we’ve been defederated from beehaw.org. I think there’s some necessary context to understand what this means to the users on this instance.
How federation works
The way federation works is that the community on beehaw.org is an organization of posts, and you’re subscribed to it despite your account being on lemmy.world. Now someone posts on that community (created on beehaw.org), on which server is that post hosted?
It’s hosted on both! It’s hosted on any instance that has a subscriber. It’s also hosted on lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml, etc. Every instance that has a subscriber is going to have a copy of this post. That’s why if you host your own instance, you’ll often get a ton of text data just in your own server.
And the copies all stay in sync with each other using ActivityPub. So you’re reading the post that’s host on lemmy.world, and someone with an account on beehaw.org is reading the same post on beehaw.org, and the posts are kept in sync via ActivityPub. Whenever someone posts to that community or comments on a post, that data is shared to all the versions across the fediverse, and these versions are kept in sync. So up until 5 hours ago, they were the same post!
“True”-ness
A key concept that will matter in the next section is the idea of a “true” version. Effectively, one version of these posts is the “true” version, that every other community reflects. The “true” version is the one hosted on the instance that hosts the community. So the “true” version of a beehaw.org community post is the one actually hosted on beehaw.org. We have a copy, but ours is only a copy. If you post to our copy, it updates the “true” version on beehaw.org, and then all the other instances look to the “true” version on beehaw to update themselves.
The same goes for communities hosted on lemmy.world or lemmy.ml. Defederation affects how information is shared between instances. If you keep track of where the “true” version is hosted, it becomes a lot easier to understand what is going on.
How defederation works
Now take that example post from earlier, the one on beehaw.org. The “true” version of the post is on beehaw.org but the post is still hosted on both instances (again, it has a copy hosted on all instances). Let’s say someone with an account on beehaw.org comments on that post. That comment is going to be sent to every version of that post via ActivityPub, as the “true” version has been updated. That is, every version EXCEPT lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. So users on lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works won’t get that comment, because we’ve been defederated from beehaw.org. If we write a comment, it will only be visible from accounts on lemmy.world, because we posted to a copy, but our copy is now out of sync with the “true” version. So we can appear to interact with the post, but those interactions are ONLY visible by other lemmy.world accounts, since our comments aren’t send to other versions. As the “true” version is hosted on beehaw, and we no longer get beehaw updates due to defederation, we will not see comments from ANY other community on those posts (including from other defederated instances like sh.itjust.works).
The same goes for posting to beehaw communities. We can still do that. However, the “true” version of those communities are the ones on beehaw, so our posts will not be shared to other instances via ActivityPub. And all of this is true for Beehaw users with our communities. Beehaw users can continue to see and interact with Lemmy.world communities, but those interactions are only visible to other Beehaw users, since the “true” versions of the Lemmy.world communities (the ones sent to/synced with every other instance) is the Lemmy.world one.
Communities on other instances, for example lemmy.ml, are unaffected by this. Lemmy.world and beehaw.org users will still be able to interact with those communities, but posts/comments from lemmy.world users won’t be visible to beehaw.org users, as defederation prevents our posts/comments from being sent to the version of these posts hosted on beehaw.org. However, as the “true” version is the one on the third instance, we can still see everything from beehaw.org users. So we see a more filled in version than the beehaw users.
Why can I still see posts/comments from beehaw users?
Until they defederated us, posts/comments were being sent to lemmy.world, so we can see everything from before defederation. After defederation, we are no longer receiving or sending updates. So there are now multiple versions of those posts.
Why can I still interact with beehaw communities?
This won’t ever stop. You’ll notice that all posts after defederation are only from lemmy.world users. You won’t see posts/comments from ANY other instance (including instances that ) on beehaw.org communities.
Those communities will quickly suck for us, as we’re only talking to other lemmy.world users. Your posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. I highly recommend just unsubscribing from those communities, since they’re pretty pointless for us to be in right now.
Why do I still see comments from beehaw users on lemmy.world communities?
Again, comments from before defederation were still sent to us. After defederation, it will no longer be possible for beehaw users to interact with the “true” version of lemmy.world communities. Their posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. They also aren’t getting updates from any other lemmy, as the “true” version of those communities is on our instance.
Why do I see posts/comments from beehaw users on communities outside lemmy.world and beehaw.org?
That’s because the “true” version of those posts is outside beehaw. So we get updates from those posts. And lemmy.world didn’t defederate beehaw, so posts/comments from beehaw users can still come to versions hosted on lemmy.world.
The reverse is not true. Because beehaw defederate lemmy.world, any post/comment from a lemmy.world users will NOT be sent to the beehaw version of the post.
This seems like it’s worse for beehaw users than for us?
Yes. In my opinion, this is an extraordinarily dumb act by the beehaw instance owners. It’s worse for beehaw users than for us, and will likely result in many beehaw users leaving that instance. They said in their post that this is a nuke, but I don’t think they fully assessed the blast area. Based on their post, I don’t think they fully understand what defederation does.
As a Reddit refugee, and thus part of the problem, this kind of thing is what makes me unsure if I want to use Lemmy. I don’t want to suddenly lose access to communities I’ve become accustomed to for reasons beyond my control.
Also, is there a way to see all the instances that have specifically defederated or blocked this one?
It is in your control, just not on a day to basis. You choose which instance your account is on and that is an important decision with consequences. People have signed up to lemmy.world because it’s easy but maybe their approach doesn’t match what you’re looking for.
It is hard at the moment because everything is in flux so the consequences of choices aren’t very clear. One thing to remember though - you don’t have to have just one account.
the thing is, this is an awful strategy for getting people onto a platform. The reason for reddit’s success was that there were forums for pretty much anything you could think of centralized in one place.
99.9% of people don’t care that much about which app, which instance, which server, whatever, they’re just there for the content. The fact that so many reddit users are up in arms about it is a legacy from when it was a much more niche platform than it is today. But in general, this confusing mess of federation, moderation philosophies, defederation, it doesn’t matter which instance you choose because they federate, but actually it does matter because some of them don’t, a wall of text needed to explain what happens when the mods of two different servers have a disagreement and how the federation protocol works, it’s just not a good strategy for getting people onto the platform.
Yeah I’m starting to realize some things after really exploring Lemmy after a few days. My biggest concern is that the whole federated thing isn’t gonna work for me. I don’t want to hunt for small communities and then risk losing them in petty squabbles by those who control them. It’s like a whole bunch of little villages who claim to be united and connected, but in reality any village can cut off contact with any other for whatever reason their village leader(s) decide. You can leave the village if you don’t like it, sure, but do you really want to end up as an internet nomad? I sure don’t. Federation clearly does not inherently mean everyone is connected, despite what some proponents of the fediverse might say.
Exactly how I feel
Yup
What exhausting nonsense
Yes, you can go to here to see the instances that are currently linked and blocked in your community.
Edit: Nevermind, this only shows instances your community has blocked. Let me see if there’s a better way.
I’m also searching and gathering, let’s share! Also tagging @[email protected]
https://github.com/maltfield/awesome-lemmy-instances#all-lemmy-instances
3rd colum from the right (BI) shows the number of instances blocked from this instance. It does not tell you which instances are blocked specifically, but gives a rough idea with an overview.
https://lemmymap.feddit.de/
Bottom left you can check ‘blocked’ and see a visual graph of red defederations. This view becomes increasingly unusable as lemmy grows, and already takes some time to load.
I was on the fence about joining lemmy.world or lemmy.one. As of today I’m glad I’m on lemmy.one I really hope that these growing pains end quickly.
I don’t understand this post at all apparently. If I am now subscribed to beehaw, does that mean i’m exempt from being defederated? Or do I need to try signing up for lemmy.one?
It doesn’t make you exempt. Your home instance is lemmy.world so you’ll see a stale copy of all beehaw threads that stopped being updated at the time of the defederation. If you interact with these threads, users on beehaw won’t see your comments and upvotes. You’re basically shadowbanned because they defederated from your home instance.
Jesus Fucking Christ. I’m a very basic web user, I don’t have the technical understanding to navigate this.
Which is why it was kind of an asshole move by the beehaw admins to defederate. They caused endless confusion for the average user.
Some other comment explained that if you have an account on instance amd this instance is defederated by other instance then when you interact with posts on instance defederating you, you will only see comments from other people from your instance. I’m not sure if you can see comments made by users from other instances.