I’m not an expert on these things, but I’m pretty sure Russians and Ukrainians are doing a fine job of killing each other without direct U.S. intervention.
We sent 76 billion dollars worth of aid to Ukraine in a year and a half. That is four times their own defense budget for 2023. We’re funding their defense. It’s a proxy war between US and Russia. I mean, we’ve already been intervening – in 2014 we were trying to influence the outcome of their government during their revolution, you can read some analysis here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957.amp
Edit: if you flipped it on it’s head, this war is like if Mexico had a revolution that overthrew their corrupt government, and while the protests were happening Russia was supporting key members of the ones overthrowing the government. US feels threatened that our neighbor is strengthening ties with our enemy, and so we invade Mexico. It’s obviously not right for the US to invade sovereign Mexico. It’s obviously not right that Russia is fucking around in Mexico’s revolution. But in this case, Russia doesn’t care if Mexico beats back the invading US, they just want to keep supplying them with weapons to prop up Russia’s own domestic “defense” industry, prop up the economy, claim moral necessity, unite the party against a common enemy, bobs your uncle, you’re elected again
One years’ defence budget to decimate the entire military capability of one of the US biggest rivals. That’s just a good deal. And it’s insane to bring up US interference in Ukrainian politics when that’s the exact thing Russia has been doing since forever. Russia has considered Ukraine a vassal state since the time of the Tsar, but somehow America is the one trying to mess with their sovereignty? Delusional propaganda.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say I’m delusional about, or what you’re trying to claim is propaganda, but nice lil throw-in there. Good to see you’re not actually trying to have a conversation.
It seems you’ve entirely missed the point though. Of course Russia would rather Ukraine as their subject, and that they would rather they have a russia-friendly government (after all, a third of Ukraine speaks Russian).
There is no justification for Russia invading Ukraine.
But the US has actually done nothing to try to end this war, and has done much to provoke it, and I think that’s because we have a perpetual war economy. You said it yourself, it’s a good deal to weaken our rivals – we don’t actually need American troops on the ground, but we can still fight the evil Russians, hoo-rah! Fuck them communists! Talk about hawkish propaganda.
Edit: oh, and by the way, if you really want to argue that US should be in this proxy war because Russia is a big US “rival”: Russia’s GDP is ~2 trillion dollars compared to the US 26 trillion, so not exactly economic rivals, and comparing NATO vs Russia military prowess isnt much of a fairer balance. So how do you mean that Russia is a US rival? Historically, sure, but we shouldn’t go invading everyone considered a historical “rival,” should we?
This particular specimen is most likely a tankie. But I don’t blame you for confusing them, because there aren’t really any differences in 99% of their opinions.
Republicans are open with who they are, they lay out for all to see. There’s no need to call out behavior everyone can see. Liberals need to be called out because they talk like they care, but do the opposite.
Don’t forget that it’s politically advantageous to have a big bad enemy country to unite your party. For Democrats, it’s Russia. For Republicans, it’s China.
Obviously both Russia and China are authoritarian as all fuck, but Israel is an authoritarian occupier as well, and we’re perfectly fine with them.
I mean, there’s really only one whataboutism in my comment (what about Palestine and Israel), but sure, you can say there are four in there.
And honestly I think it’s a fair point. The US is not purely interested in defending nation states from authoritarian occupation, because if we were, we’d not support the state of Israel in their oppression of Palestinians. So there must be other factors behind our support for Ukraine, some might be legitimate (protecting Ukrainian exports to keep global economy stable) and others not so much (protecting profits for private arms companies). And I think it’s more likely the latter, considering the size of our “defense” budget.
What do you have to say to that? I’m interested in your take, not in you just accusing me of whataboutism.
Sure, but who isn’t “against” China in the West? They commit atrocities left and right.
But I think it’d be more difficult to find many who’d support military conflict with China, proxy or otherwise.
Edit: honestly, scratch that. I think it would be pretty easy to get popular support for a conflict with China, in the same way it was easy to get popular and unwavering support for a conflict with Russia
This war isn’t meant to be won, it’s meant to be continuous. And the US is killing Ukrainians and Russians in the name of protecting MIC profits.
Yeah, nah.
This war is Russia killing Ukrainians. Russia made the decision to invade a foreign country. Russia has all the blame.
So much confidence with such ignorance
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Funny how the war would end tomorrow if Russia went back the fuck home.
I’m not an expert on these things, but I’m pretty sure Russians and Ukrainians are doing a fine job of killing each other without direct U.S. intervention.
We sent 76 billion dollars worth of aid to Ukraine in a year and a half. That is four times their own defense budget for 2023. We’re funding their defense. It’s a proxy war between US and Russia. I mean, we’ve already been intervening – in 2014 we were trying to influence the outcome of their government during their revolution, you can read some analysis here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957.amp
Edit: if you flipped it on it’s head, this war is like if Mexico had a revolution that overthrew their corrupt government, and while the protests were happening Russia was supporting key members of the ones overthrowing the government. US feels threatened that our neighbor is strengthening ties with our enemy, and so we invade Mexico. It’s obviously not right for the US to invade sovereign Mexico. It’s obviously not right that Russia is fucking around in Mexico’s revolution. But in this case, Russia doesn’t care if Mexico beats back the invading US, they just want to keep supplying them with weapons to prop up Russia’s own domestic “defense” industry, prop up the economy, claim moral necessity, unite the party against a common enemy, bobs your uncle, you’re elected again
One years’ defence budget to decimate the entire military capability of one of the US biggest rivals. That’s just a good deal. And it’s insane to bring up US interference in Ukrainian politics when that’s the exact thing Russia has been doing since forever. Russia has considered Ukraine a vassal state since the time of the Tsar, but somehow America is the one trying to mess with their sovereignty? Delusional propaganda.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say I’m delusional about, or what you’re trying to claim is propaganda, but nice lil throw-in there. Good to see you’re not actually trying to have a conversation.
It seems you’ve entirely missed the point though. Of course Russia would rather Ukraine as their subject, and that they would rather they have a russia-friendly government (after all, a third of Ukraine speaks Russian).
There is no justification for Russia invading Ukraine.
But the US has actually done nothing to try to end this war, and has done much to provoke it, and I think that’s because we have a perpetual war economy. You said it yourself, it’s a good deal to weaken our rivals – we don’t actually need American troops on the ground, but we can still fight the evil Russians, hoo-rah! Fuck them communists! Talk about hawkish propaganda.
Edit: oh, and by the way, if you really want to argue that US should be in this proxy war because Russia is a big US “rival”: Russia’s GDP is ~2 trillion dollars compared to the US 26 trillion, so not exactly economic rivals, and comparing NATO vs Russia military prowess isnt much of a fairer balance. So how do you mean that Russia is a US rival? Historically, sure, but we shouldn’t go invading everyone considered a historical “rival,” should we?
You’re hilarious.
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Liberals love their slurs
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This particular specimen is most likely a tankie. But I don’t blame you for confusing them, because there aren’t really any differences in 99% of their opinions.
Your smooth brain can’t comprehend it’s possible to be neither?
Ironic coming from someone who just called somebody else a “liberal” without knowing anything at all about them.
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Republicans are open with who they are, they lay out for all to see. There’s no need to call out behavior everyone can see. Liberals need to be called out because they talk like they care, but do the opposite.
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Not as much as tankies though.
Oh the irony.
Don’t forget that it’s politically advantageous to have a big bad enemy country to unite your party. For Democrats, it’s Russia. For Republicans, it’s China.
Obviously both Russia and China are authoritarian as all fuck, but Israel is an authoritarian occupier as well, and we’re perfectly fine with them.
Hard to tell, is that a double, trifecta, or grand slam of whattaboutism?
In any case, hats off. Your skills are on point.
I mean, there’s really only one whataboutism in my comment (what about Palestine and Israel), but sure, you can say there are four in there.
And honestly I think it’s a fair point. The US is not purely interested in defending nation states from authoritarian occupation, because if we were, we’d not support the state of Israel in their oppression of Palestinians. So there must be other factors behind our support for Ukraine, some might be legitimate (protecting Ukrainian exports to keep global economy stable) and others not so much (protecting profits for private arms companies). And I think it’s more likely the latter, considering the size of our “defense” budget.
What do you have to say to that? I’m interested in your take, not in you just accusing me of whataboutism.
Democratic Party are also against China.
- Signed, a millennial Democrat against China.Sure, but who isn’t “against” China in the West? They commit atrocities left and right.
But I think it’d be more difficult to find many who’d support military conflict with China, proxy or otherwise.
Edit: honestly, scratch that. I think it would be pretty easy to get popular support for a conflict with China, in the same way it was easy to get popular and unwavering support for a conflict with Russia
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