SMH. A woman lights a child on fire one time and you call her an abuser. /s
(Though she’s technically not actually burning a child alive. Magic targets the soul, not the body.
Which sounds way worse, but in-universe, soul damage is a complete nothing-burger - by which I mean it’s nothing after eating a single burger. Magic damage is trivial to heal and doesn’t actually cause harm unless you hit 0 HP, which Toriel actively avoids doing to the player during that fight.)
Listen, Toriel is hundreds of years old and shouldn’t be judged by modern standards of morality. Back in the day, taking a child down into the basement and dropping an inferno on them was a perfectly acceptable method of instilling discipline!
I think Undertale taught a generation of queer kids some messed up values when it comes to abuse, and that’s part of why we have so much abuse in our community that goes unopposed.
I don’t know. Earlier today I found a bug in my house and took it outside, away from the cats and presumably towards whatever it eats or wants to bang. Am I really any different from Toriel? Nothing gives me the right to tell it where to be; I’m only doing what I think is best for a creature less intelligent than myself.
The thing I like about Undertale vs something like Steven Universe is that the kind of pacifism being advocated isn’t one of passive forgiveness, but a stubborn unwillingness to accept what one disagrees with. And also the fact that the villains have very reasonable concerns regarding the need to defend themselves from humans rather than just actually being Nazis or abusive parents. It’s not a 1:1 analogy for real life and can’t be applied to every situation, but I think the idea of simply saying no and refusing to comply is a practical strategy in parts of life.
I prefer Steven Universe, actually. MEGA SPOILERS BELOW!
Jasper is a really interesting character as someone who cannot be redeemed, because she doesn’t want to get better. She’s secure in her fascist ideology, and trying to forgive her is just going to get someone hurt. I actually don’t like Undertale’s approach of making the antagonists somewhat reasonable, because in our world, Nazis are unreasonable and often cannot be reasoned with. I’ve tried to reason with bigots and I’ve given up on them. Some can be redeemed, some just can’t. And their actions often come from a place of trauma, but rarely from a place of logic.
The two Lapis Lazulis in Future that like terraforming planets are another good example of fascists who can’t be reasoned with. I know plenty of people like that, who like causing suffering even if there’s an alternative.
Bismuth is also a great character. Sometimes a person with a good heart and good intentions needs to be put the fuck down, or ideally just put in the chill out box until their circumstances change. And back when the Diamonds’ war was causing human casualties, Bismuth had a good point that sometimes the enemy needs to be put the fuck down.
Another great thing Steven Universe does is portray the actual effects of child abuse and child soldiering, especially in Future. We see White Diamond basically kill a child. It’s horrifying and traumatic for everyone involved. Frisk can just eat a hamburger and be fine, but when Steven gets hurt, both on the outside and the inside, it’s horrifying. The first half of season 1 verges on grimdark with how fucked Steven’s home life is.
And then Future deep dives into those themes by showing that Steven has PTSD and a messed up skeleton. His relationship with his family gets better, but he gets worse, in a way that only becomes apparent when the world stops trying to kill him.
I definitely don’t perceive any character in Steven Universe as passive. Least of all Steven. Steven doesn’t just forgive, he goes and takes the fight to the Diamonds. He’s willing to put his life and liberty on the line to teach someone a lesson, and he’s not afraid to use violence. He just doesn’t believe in killing.
When I played Undertale, I didn’t see all that much of a grey area between killing and nonviolence. When Toriel refused to let Me leave, I beat her up, then spared her. It didn’t work. You have to spare her like ten times, and it doesn’t matter how hurt she is. I tried to spare Undyne, it didn’t work. Papyrus is the only character I was able to successfully spare.
The problem is that Undertale’s level of violence is all-or-nothing. You’re either dead or you’re fine. No trauma. No scars. People say it’s okay that Toriel hits a child, because she avoids killing them. That’s not just people being weird, it’s the way Undertale teaches models of violence. There is no violence as a deterrent, no threat of violence to work towards peace, just death or pacifism. I prefer Steven Universe, where being hurt and being dead are two very different states of being.
SMH. A woman lights a child on fire one time and you call her an abuser. /s
(Though she’s technically not actually burning a child alive. Magic targets the soul, not the body.
Which sounds way worse, but in-universe, soul damage is a complete nothing-burger - by which I mean it’s nothing after eating a single burger. Magic damage is trivial to heal and doesn’t actually cause harm unless you hit 0 HP, which Toriel actively avoids doing to the player during that fight.)
Since children heal so quickly, beating them must be less unethical than beating up adults! According to that logic, anyway
Listen, Toriel is hundreds of years old and shouldn’t be judged by modern standards of morality. Back in the day, taking a child down into the basement and dropping an inferno on them was a perfectly acceptable method of instilling discipline!
(Again, /s)
Not only is that not what they were arguing, it’s a video game, it’s not real
My point is that having your soul burned has gotta hurt, even if it heals easy.
I haven’t played the game, but it really sounds like you’re taking it way too seriously. Methinks you need to chill.
I think Undertale taught a generation of queer kids some messed up values when it comes to abuse, and that’s part of why we have so much abuse in our community that goes unopposed.
I don’t know. Earlier today I found a bug in my house and took it outside, away from the cats and presumably towards whatever it eats or wants to bang. Am I really any different from Toriel? Nothing gives me the right to tell it where to be; I’m only doing what I think is best for a creature less intelligent than myself.
The thing I like about Undertale vs something like Steven Universe is that the kind of pacifism being advocated isn’t one of passive forgiveness, but a stubborn unwillingness to accept what one disagrees with. And also the fact that the villains have very reasonable concerns regarding the need to defend themselves from humans rather than just actually being Nazis or abusive parents. It’s not a 1:1 analogy for real life and can’t be applied to every situation, but I think the idea of simply saying no and refusing to comply is a practical strategy in parts of life.
I prefer Steven Universe, actually. MEGA SPOILERS BELOW!
Jasper is a really interesting character as someone who cannot be redeemed, because she doesn’t want to get better. She’s secure in her fascist ideology, and trying to forgive her is just going to get someone hurt. I actually don’t like Undertale’s approach of making the antagonists somewhat reasonable, because in our world, Nazis are unreasonable and often cannot be reasoned with. I’ve tried to reason with bigots and I’ve given up on them. Some can be redeemed, some just can’t. And their actions often come from a place of trauma, but rarely from a place of logic.
The two Lapis Lazulis in Future that like terraforming planets are another good example of fascists who can’t be reasoned with. I know plenty of people like that, who like causing suffering even if there’s an alternative.
Bismuth is also a great character. Sometimes a person with a good heart and good intentions needs to be put the fuck down, or ideally just put in the chill out box until their circumstances change. And back when the Diamonds’ war was causing human casualties, Bismuth had a good point that sometimes the enemy needs to be put the fuck down.
Another great thing Steven Universe does is portray the actual effects of child abuse and child soldiering, especially in Future. We see White Diamond basically kill a child. It’s horrifying and traumatic for everyone involved. Frisk can just eat a hamburger and be fine, but when Steven gets hurt, both on the outside and the inside, it’s horrifying. The first half of season 1 verges on grimdark with how fucked Steven’s home life is.
And then Future deep dives into those themes by showing that Steven has PTSD and a messed up skeleton. His relationship with his family gets better, but he gets worse, in a way that only becomes apparent when the world stops trying to kill him.
I definitely don’t perceive any character in Steven Universe as passive. Least of all Steven. Steven doesn’t just forgive, he goes and takes the fight to the Diamonds. He’s willing to put his life and liberty on the line to teach someone a lesson, and he’s not afraid to use violence. He just doesn’t believe in killing.
When I played Undertale, I didn’t see all that much of a grey area between killing and nonviolence. When Toriel refused to let Me leave, I beat her up, then spared her. It didn’t work. You have to spare her like ten times, and it doesn’t matter how hurt she is. I tried to spare Undyne, it didn’t work. Papyrus is the only character I was able to successfully spare.
The problem is that Undertale’s level of violence is all-or-nothing. You’re either dead or you’re fine. No trauma. No scars. People say it’s okay that Toriel hits a child, because she avoids killing them. That’s not just people being weird, it’s the way Undertale teaches models of violence. There is no violence as a deterrent, no threat of violence to work towards peace, just death or pacifism. I prefer Steven Universe, where being hurt and being dead are two very different states of being.