ou might have seen that we’ve been defederated from beehaw.org. I think there’s some necessary context to understand what this means to the users on this instance.

How federation works

The way federation works is that the community on beehaw.org is an organization of posts, and you’re subscribed to it despite your account being on lemmy.world. Now someone posts on that community (created on beehaw.org), on which server is that post hosted?

It’s hosted on both! It’s hosted on any instance that has a subscriber. It’s also hosted on lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml, etc. Every instance that has a subscriber is going to have a copy of this post. That’s why if you host your own instance, you’ll often get a ton of text data just in your own server.

And the copies all stay in sync with each other using ActivityPub. So you’re reading the post that’s host on lemmy.world, and someone with an account on beehaw.org is reading the same post on beehaw.org, and the posts are kept in sync via ActivityPub. Whenever someone posts to that community or comments on a post, that data is shared to all the versions across the fediverse, and these versions are kept in sync. So up until 5 hours ago, they were the same post!

“True”-ness

A key concept that will matter in the next section is the idea of a “true” version. Effectively, one version of these posts is the “true” version, that every other community reflects. The “true” version is the one hosted on the instance that hosts the community. So the “true” version of a beehaw.org community post is the one actually hosted on beehaw.org. We have a copy, but ours is only a copy. If you post to our copy, it updates the “true” version on beehaw.org, and then all the other instances look to the “true” version on beehaw to update themselves.

The same goes for communities hosted on lemmy.world or lemmy.ml. Defederation affects how information is shared between instances. If you keep track of where the “true” version is hosted, it becomes a lot easier to understand what is going on.

How defederation works

Now take that example post from earlier, the one on beehaw.org. The “true” version of the post is on beehaw.org but the post is still hosted on both instances (again, it has a copy hosted on all instances). Let’s say someone with an account on beehaw.org comments on that post. That comment is going to be sent to every version of that post via ActivityPub, as the “true” version has been updated. That is, every version EXCEPT lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. So users on lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works won’t get that comment, because we’ve been defederated from beehaw.org. If we write a comment, it will only be visible from accounts on lemmy.world, because we posted to a copy, but our copy is now out of sync with the “true” version. So we can appear to interact with the post, but those interactions are ONLY visible by other lemmy.world accounts, since our comments aren’t send to other versions. As the “true” version is hosted on beehaw, and we no longer get beehaw updates due to defederation, we will not see comments from ANY other community on those posts (including from other defederated instances like sh.itjust.works).

The same goes for posting to beehaw communities. We can still do that. However, the “true” version of those communities are the ones on beehaw, so our posts will not be shared to other instances via ActivityPub. And all of this is true for Beehaw users with our communities. Beehaw users can continue to see and interact with Lemmy.world communities, but those interactions are only visible to other Beehaw users, since the “true” versions of the Lemmy.world communities (the ones sent to/synced with every other instance) is the Lemmy.world one.

Communities on other instances, for example lemmy.ml, are unaffected by this. Lemmy.world and beehaw.org users will still be able to interact with those communities, but posts/comments from lemmy.world users won’t be visible to beehaw.org users, as defederation prevents our posts/comments from being sent to the version of these posts hosted on beehaw.org. However, as the “true” version is the one on the third instance, we can still see everything from beehaw.org users. So we see a more filled in version than the beehaw users.

Why can I still see posts/comments from beehaw users?

Until they defederated us, posts/comments were being sent to lemmy.world, so we can see everything from before defederation. After defederation, we are no longer receiving or sending updates. So there are now multiple versions of those posts.

Why can I still interact with beehaw communities?

This won’t ever stop. You’ll notice that all posts after defederation are only from lemmy.world users. You won’t see posts/comments from ANY other instance (including instances that ) on beehaw.org communities.

Those communities will quickly suck for us, as we’re only talking to other lemmy.world users. Your posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. I highly recommend just unsubscribing from those communities, since they’re pretty pointless for us to be in right now.

Why do I still see comments from beehaw users on lemmy.world communities?

Again, comments from before defederation were still sent to us. After defederation, it will no longer be possible for beehaw users to interact with the “true” version of lemmy.world communities. Their posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. They also aren’t getting updates from any other lemmy, as the “true” version of those communities is on our instance.

Why do I see posts/comments from beehaw users on communities outside lemmy.world and beehaw.org?

That’s because the “true” version of those posts is outside beehaw. So we get updates from those posts. And lemmy.world didn’t defederate beehaw, so posts/comments from beehaw users can still come to versions hosted on lemmy.world.

The reverse is not true. Because beehaw defederate lemmy.world, any post/comment from a lemmy.world users will NOT be sent to the beehaw version of the post.

This seems like it’s worse for beehaw users than for us?

Yes. In my opinion, this is an extraordinarily dumb act by the beehaw instance owners. It’s worse for beehaw users than for us, and will likely result in many beehaw users leaving that instance. They said in their post that this is a nuke, but I don’t think they fully assessed the blast area. Based on their post, I don’t think they fully understand what defederation does.

  • bmoney
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    11 year ago

    you are allowed!

    but i dont agree with you

    you see the difference right?

    ive been in the same threads and I have seen none of what you’re talking about, even looked through your history

    mostly it seems to be people trying to reasonably explain thats the game we’re playing. they get to do that, and they will not be the only one. Federation and all this is a fairly new thing, there will be pains like this going forward.

    in addition, they have not made it permanent. it was about their carefully crafted community. is that lame? maybe, but thats the point of a decentralized platform. Their admins get ultimate control, lemmy.world gets the same freedom

    and further more, the whole reason this spat started was your claim of gaslighting happening to you because of some commenters disagreeing with your opinions. which that doesnt fit the definition of the very serious and very damaging technique

    • @jndo
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      1 year ago

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      • bmoney
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        11 year ago

        how am i being invalidating and disrespectful?

        you are upset, thats ok! i dont think thats invalidating. you get to feel however you want, it is annoying that day 2 of my being here there is already some drama

        i just dont agree thats its something to be that upset about or to the severity of the problem

        its not blackmail, its not gaslighting, nor emotional manipulation

        i just dont agree with the opinions you have stated

        • @jndo
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          1 year ago

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          • bmoney
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            1 year ago

            quote me

            i never said that at all. i have done nothing but respect you and your feelings about this matter, while giving you my quite reasonable take

            i know we dont have to agree, thats why were not in the walled garden right? i welcome opinions that are different than mine, but you also have to respect what im saying right?

            which it certainly doesnt feel like your giving me any benefit of doubt or anything. just assume im just some jerk

            • @jndo
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              1 year ago

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              • bmoney
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                1 year ago

                well i still dont see disrespect or invalidation of they way you feel, unless defederation makes you question what is real around you, which i guess i assumed you didnt feel “crazy or insane” due to people disagreeing with you

                and did you even read that thread? this is what you replied to that i saw

                right? it wasn’t anywhere near a big deal or an insult to other instances it’s “we don’t have the resources to handle any possible bad actors from big instances with loose >registration requirements, so we’re defederating from them until we feel that we can handle it”

                the correct response to this is “oh, okay; hope they figure it out such that they can federate with us again in the future”; people are blowing this out of proportion

                how was that gaslighting or disrespectful to the way you felt about it. where am i being disrespectful, outside of disagreeing with you?

                Edit: furthermore aren’t you doin the same thing

                a reply of yours further down

                I don’t believe you to be honest. I haven’t seen any hostility towards beehaw admins, or any toxicity whatsoever on the fediverse at all, whether lemmy.world or otherwise. You claim that the only thing you see is people being extremely hostile. So where are they?

                are you not, by your definition gaslighting them?

                • @jndo
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                  11 year ago

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                  • bmoney
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                    11 year ago

                    i feel gaslighted tbh, why are you trying to make me feel like im offended? i am certainly not but you keep insisting im upset

                    and if people disagreeing with you is enough to leave, then maybe social media isint for you, and thats super ok. i dont want you too but i cant force anyone to stay, just like the i cant force beehaw

                    can you not validate the way i feel, acknowledge some of my points as being real?