Only thing you said that’s close to correct. Don’t be pretentious.
Humans are omnivores. Eating meat is okay. If you wanna discuss the ethics of end-user life choices under late-stge capitalism in a food desert, that’s fine, but don’t sugar coat your morals and shove them down my throat. Just don’t eat meat for yourself, and be the change you want to see in the world. If you’re doing it so you can tell others what to do, or that they’re not as good as you because they don’t do what you do, then you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.
I don’t have to blame big oil, I can blame the rich people exploring capitalism. They’re the reason all the otherwise affordable stuff is expensive. Single-mom Susie and hunter Dave feeding their family are not the problem. Capitalism is the problem, and the rich people want to keep getting richer.
They’re blaming the poor with a baited line, and you swallowed.
If billions of people on the planet want to eat animal products, this inevitably causes significant harm to the nature, the animals and ourselves (global warming, pandemics etc.). Just because our species lived off meat in the past (with way less individuals) that doesn’t mean we can and should continue like this.
The consumption of animal products isn’t the problem.
It is the exploitation of the production for profits, which is not a choice of the consumer. This is what causes the problems in nature: increases in greenhouse gasses like methane and the inability of our planet to re-uptake carbon through the reckless destruction of carbon locking plant life environments like oceans and forests, etc all.
You can point fingers at people who want to eat meat all you want but personal responsibility is incapable of balancing out the atrocities that are rewarded thru capitalism. This is intentional, and it is being perpetuated by the ones being rewarded for it. The rich.
If you think for one minute that not eating animal products is going to resolve these issues, then you’re deluding yourself.
There is nothing wrong with not eating animal products, if you can afford to live like that. But be honest with yourself about the realities that others experience; both those who can’t afford to or just don’t want to live like that, and the ones exploiting the world’s resources for personal gain. There is a huge difference in culpability between these groups.
The consumption of animal products isn’t the problem. It is the exploitation of the production for profits
Greenhouse gases aren’t created through exploitation, but by the pure existence of the animals. Even if we hypothetically held all animals under perfect conditions (which is impossible anyhow due to lack of land and ressources), it doesn’t significantly reduce the greenhouse gases. If you want to lower the emmissions, people must lower and ideally stop the consumption.
You can point fingers at people who want to eat meat
I don’t fingerpoint at omnivores. I fingerpoint at people who claim that people consuming animal products is only the fault of some third party rich people. We know that veganism helps the planet in many aspects. If you decide to live different that’s OK, but it’s your choice.
if you can afford to live like that.
Unless you’re a Mongolian shepard in an area where soil and weather allow nothing but grass and goats or you live off food donations only, that’s not true. For people who buy their food in supermarkets, veganism isn’t more expensive than an omnivore diet. If you live off basic ingredients rather than comfort food, it’s usually rather cheaper.
“Greenhouse gasses aren’t created through exploitation”
This is the most obtuse statement you could possibly make for your argument. Exploitation of resources is the single biggest cause of greenhouse gas accumulation in the world today. You clearly lack an understanding of the causes and sources of greenhouse gasses.
“I don’t fingerpoint at omnivores”
And
“… people must lower and ideally stop [animal product] consumption.”
These are mutually exclusive statements. One cannot be true while stating the other at the same time.
“Unless you’re a Mongolian shepherd…”
This^ is the beginning of one of the most privileged, bigoted, ignorant, vapid, dishonest, and ridiculous statements you’ve ever uttered in your life.
“if you live off basic ingredients rather than comfort food, it’s usually cheaper.”
Blaming individual people again for costing themselves too much by trying to be comfortable. Yet still unwilling to blame the groups who literally destroy the world to enrich themselves off it’s resources and rob us of our future in doing so… financially, environmentally, spiritually, physically. All so they can add another decimal point to their uncountable dragon’s hoard office wealth.
This exploitation is the cause of almost all of our problems, and it isn’t perpetuated by consumers. It is perpetuated by the elite and propaganda that people like yourself regurgitate that puts the onus on the poor, and allows you to live guilt free in some ideal fantasy in your own head because you’re doing your part and everyone else just needs to live by your rules.
You sound like a corporate shill. A capitalist apologist. An entitled individual of privilege who lacks empathy and culture, but not lacking in the time and money to go to nice grocery stores for ingredients you can craft into healthy, balanced, wholesome meals.
Regardless of who you are versus who you sound like, you are incapable of making reasonable arguments. Best of luck convincing people of your opinion when you can’t see where they’re coming from. Have a nice day.
This is the most obtuse statement you could possibly make for your argument.
There are many humans on this planet. If a majority of these humans consumes animal products as they do today this means massive greenhouse gases. If you see a way to strike out the emmissions without striking out production and consumption - please enlighten me.
These are mutually exclusive statements.
They aren’t.
If you want to lower emmissions from animal agriculture, you have to reduce animal agriculture. As an intermediate step you may have some options to switch to smaller animals such as insects instead of larger animals. But as acceptance of insect food is much lower than vegan food, I see little sense in pursuing that strategy.
I don’t think bad of people for being omnivores. That’s the traditional way how humans lived forever. People are used to consume animal products and it’s hard to break with habits. Not everyone has the mental capacity to do so, people have other priorities in life. That’s fine for me.
But if someone else is running around saying ‘consuming animal products is not problematic, it’s all about the rich!’ then that’s incorrect from my perspective and I want to point that out.
Yet still unwilling to blame the groups who literally destroy the world
I literally wrote in my initial post that ‘there are many good reasons to blame rich people’. The fact that many rich people have a negative impact on our society and planet, …
does not mean that individual consumers are completely off the hook in all kinds of moral questions.
that everything any rich person says is automatically wrong
Especially in a topic like veganism I can’t see an intrinsic motivation of ‘the rich elite’ to force animal products on the people. You can be rich by selling meat or you can be rich by selling tofu. Selling vegan alternatives at a large scale to the masses would probably even lead to higher profits as the production is cheaper.
allows you to live guilt free
Veganism isn’t about being morally inferior. A moral lifestyle has numerous aspects, veganism is just one aspect. Being a good person is not limited to veganism or trying to protect the environment in general. It’s not about rating people against each other. Yet, it’s absolutely fair to say from my perspective that veganism can do a lot of good for the world: reduce CO2 and methane emmissions, lower the risk of famines, reduce animal harm, reduce deforestation and land use, lower the risk of pandemics and resistent germs, get rid of the horrible working conditions for factory workers in the animal industry and many more.
All humans just going vegan at once is completely delusional. But every single person helps, even if it’s just lowering the consumption a bit helps.
And my point is that it is absolutely in the power of each individual to take these small steps. If you want it, no rich person can hinder you from that.
you are incapable of making reasonable arguments
Major parts of your post are personally attacking and insulting me. That’s not necessarily what I’d consider a healthy debate. But unfortunately it seems to be a very emotional topic I guess.
I apologize, I was being an asshole. I disagree with a majority of your arguments, but i was very inconsiderate in presenting my own. I genuinely hope I didn’t ruin your day with my attitude
-I’m not personally attacking you, and I’m not insulting you. If you are feeling attacked or insulted, then maybe that part of what I’m saying is just ringing truer than you like.
-People eating animal products doesn’t cause greenhouse gasses any more than people eating high protein vegan diets. The greenhouse gasses are from people mass producing the animals. Is this something we can agree on?
-You said you weren’t blaming omnivores, but then said that people eating animal products needs to stop. That is literally you blaming the people eating animal products. I didn’t say you were persecuting them, but you are saying they need to stop doing what they’re doing in order to fix the problems, as you see it. Is this also something we can agree on?
-Individual consumer food choices are not your business or your right to judge. If you aren’t having the problems they’re having or living their lives, then that’s good for you, but don’t present yourself as the arbiter of proper food morals. That is not how morals work. it is unethical for you to tell people what morals they should have, especially for their food. This type of behavior is privilege and entitlement personified. Can we also agree on this?
-i never said everything every rich person said is wrong. I said not to trust them or their propaganda. There is plenty of good reason, which you seem to agree with, to not trust them. Am I mistaken on your perspective?
-Do the rich people or the poor people own the means of production for the animal agriculture infrastructure? If it’s the poor people, then i agree with you that they need to make different choices. If it’s the rich people, perhaps you should reconsider who is really at fault for producing the animals that produce the greenhouse gasses. Unless, of course, they are spending their profits from their enterprises rehabilitating the environment that they are capitalizing on to generate their wealth… boy, I thought there was another word for personal gain at the expense of others. Exploitation or something?
-I do agree with you that veganism could do a lot of good for the world. I just disagree that it would be right, proper, or “moral” in all situations. However, exploitation is absolutely unethical in all circumstances. Is this something we both agree on?
-Veganism isn’t about morally superiority, but you are using it that way with your arguments. Just look at how you consider people to be not of the proper “mental capacity” if they don’t make that change. Is this something you mis-stated?
You clearly lack an understanding of the causes and sources of greenhouse gasses.
This^ is the beginning of one of the most privileged, bigoted, ignorant, vapid, dishonest, and ridiculous statements you’ve ever uttered in your life.
and propaganda that people like yourself regurgitate that puts the onus on the poor, and allows you to live guilt free in some ideal fantasy in your own head
You sound like a corporate shill. A capitalist apologist. An entitled individual of privilege who lacks empathy and culture
Only thing you said that’s close to correct. Don’t be pretentious.
Humans are omnivores. Eating meat is okay. If you wanna discuss the ethics of end-user life choices under late-stge capitalism in a food desert, that’s fine, but don’t sugar coat your morals and shove them down my throat. Just don’t eat meat for yourself, and be the change you want to see in the world. If you’re doing it so you can tell others what to do, or that they’re not as good as you because they don’t do what you do, then you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.
I don’t have to blame big oil, I can blame the rich people exploring capitalism. They’re the reason all the otherwise affordable stuff is expensive. Single-mom Susie and hunter Dave feeding their family are not the problem. Capitalism is the problem, and the rich people want to keep getting richer.
They’re blaming the poor with a baited line, and you swallowed.
If billions of people on the planet want to eat animal products, this inevitably causes significant harm to the nature, the animals and ourselves (global warming, pandemics etc.). Just because our species lived off meat in the past (with way less individuals) that doesn’t mean we can and should continue like this.
The consumption of animal products isn’t the problem.
It is the exploitation of the production for profits, which is not a choice of the consumer. This is what causes the problems in nature: increases in greenhouse gasses like methane and the inability of our planet to re-uptake carbon through the reckless destruction of carbon locking plant life environments like oceans and forests, etc all.
You can point fingers at people who want to eat meat all you want but personal responsibility is incapable of balancing out the atrocities that are rewarded thru capitalism. This is intentional, and it is being perpetuated by the ones being rewarded for it. The rich.
If you think for one minute that not eating animal products is going to resolve these issues, then you’re deluding yourself.
There is nothing wrong with not eating animal products, if you can afford to live like that. But be honest with yourself about the realities that others experience; both those who can’t afford to or just don’t want to live like that, and the ones exploiting the world’s resources for personal gain. There is a huge difference in culpability between these groups.
Greenhouse gases aren’t created through exploitation, but by the pure existence of the animals. Even if we hypothetically held all animals under perfect conditions (which is impossible anyhow due to lack of land and ressources), it doesn’t significantly reduce the greenhouse gases. If you want to lower the emmissions, people must lower and ideally stop the consumption.
I don’t fingerpoint at omnivores. I fingerpoint at people who claim that people consuming animal products is only the fault of some third party rich people. We know that veganism helps the planet in many aspects. If you decide to live different that’s OK, but it’s your choice.
Unless you’re a Mongolian shepard in an area where soil and weather allow nothing but grass and goats or you live off food donations only, that’s not true. For people who buy their food in supermarkets, veganism isn’t more expensive than an omnivore diet. If you live off basic ingredients rather than comfort food, it’s usually rather cheaper.
If I stop eating meat will you force others to stop too?
This is the most obtuse statement you could possibly make for your argument. Exploitation of resources is the single biggest cause of greenhouse gas accumulation in the world today. You clearly lack an understanding of the causes and sources of greenhouse gasses.
These are mutually exclusive statements. One cannot be true while stating the other at the same time.
This^ is the beginning of one of the most privileged, bigoted, ignorant, vapid, dishonest, and ridiculous statements you’ve ever uttered in your life.
Blaming individual people again for costing themselves too much by trying to be comfortable. Yet still unwilling to blame the groups who literally destroy the world to enrich themselves off it’s resources and rob us of our future in doing so… financially, environmentally, spiritually, physically. All so they can add another decimal point to their uncountable dragon’s hoard office wealth.
This exploitation is the cause of almost all of our problems, and it isn’t perpetuated by consumers. It is perpetuated by the elite and propaganda that people like yourself regurgitate that puts the onus on the poor, and allows you to live guilt free in some ideal fantasy in your own head because you’re doing your part and everyone else just needs to live by your rules.
You sound like a corporate shill. A capitalist apologist. An entitled individual of privilege who lacks empathy and culture, but not lacking in the time and money to go to nice grocery stores for ingredients you can craft into healthy, balanced, wholesome meals.
Regardless of who you are versus who you sound like, you are incapable of making reasonable arguments. Best of luck convincing people of your opinion when you can’t see where they’re coming from. Have a nice day.
I think it was very clear from context they were talking about exploitation of animals, not resources in general.
There are many humans on this planet. If a majority of these humans consumes animal products as they do today this means massive greenhouse gases. If you see a way to strike out the emmissions without striking out production and consumption - please enlighten me.
They aren’t.
If you want to lower emmissions from animal agriculture, you have to reduce animal agriculture. As an intermediate step you may have some options to switch to smaller animals such as insects instead of larger animals. But as acceptance of insect food is much lower than vegan food, I see little sense in pursuing that strategy.
I don’t think bad of people for being omnivores. That’s the traditional way how humans lived forever. People are used to consume animal products and it’s hard to break with habits. Not everyone has the mental capacity to do so, people have other priorities in life. That’s fine for me.
But if someone else is running around saying ‘consuming animal products is not problematic, it’s all about the rich!’ then that’s incorrect from my perspective and I want to point that out.
I literally wrote in my initial post that ‘there are many good reasons to blame rich people’. The fact that many rich people have a negative impact on our society and planet, …
Especially in a topic like veganism I can’t see an intrinsic motivation of ‘the rich elite’ to force animal products on the people. You can be rich by selling meat or you can be rich by selling tofu. Selling vegan alternatives at a large scale to the masses would probably even lead to higher profits as the production is cheaper.
Veganism isn’t about being morally inferior. A moral lifestyle has numerous aspects, veganism is just one aspect. Being a good person is not limited to veganism or trying to protect the environment in general. It’s not about rating people against each other. Yet, it’s absolutely fair to say from my perspective that veganism can do a lot of good for the world: reduce CO2 and methane emmissions, lower the risk of famines, reduce animal harm, reduce deforestation and land use, lower the risk of pandemics and resistent germs, get rid of the horrible working conditions for factory workers in the animal industry and many more.
All humans just going vegan at once is completely delusional. But every single person helps, even if it’s just lowering the consumption a bit helps.
And my point is that it is absolutely in the power of each individual to take these small steps. If you want it, no rich person can hinder you from that.
Major parts of your post are personally attacking and insulting me. That’s not necessarily what I’d consider a healthy debate. But unfortunately it seems to be a very emotional topic I guess.
I apologize, I was being an asshole. I disagree with a majority of your arguments, but i was very inconsiderate in presenting my own. I genuinely hope I didn’t ruin your day with my attitude
-I’m not personally attacking you, and I’m not insulting you. If you are feeling attacked or insulted, then maybe that part of what I’m saying is just ringing truer than you like.
-People eating animal products doesn’t cause greenhouse gasses any more than people eating high protein vegan diets. The greenhouse gasses are from people mass producing the animals. Is this something we can agree on?
-You said you weren’t blaming omnivores, but then said that people eating animal products needs to stop. That is literally you blaming the people eating animal products. I didn’t say you were persecuting them, but you are saying they need to stop doing what they’re doing in order to fix the problems, as you see it. Is this also something we can agree on?
-Individual consumer food choices are not your business or your right to judge. If you aren’t having the problems they’re having or living their lives, then that’s good for you, but don’t present yourself as the arbiter of proper food morals. That is not how morals work. it is unethical for you to tell people what morals they should have, especially for their food. This type of behavior is privilege and entitlement personified. Can we also agree on this?
-i never said everything every rich person said is wrong. I said not to trust them or their propaganda. There is plenty of good reason, which you seem to agree with, to not trust them. Am I mistaken on your perspective?
-Do the rich people or the poor people own the means of production for the animal agriculture infrastructure? If it’s the poor people, then i agree with you that they need to make different choices. If it’s the rich people, perhaps you should reconsider who is really at fault for producing the animals that produce the greenhouse gasses. Unless, of course, they are spending their profits from their enterprises rehabilitating the environment that they are capitalizing on to generate their wealth… boy, I thought there was another word for personal gain at the expense of others. Exploitation or something?
-I do agree with you that veganism could do a lot of good for the world. I just disagree that it would be right, proper, or “moral” in all situations. However, exploitation is absolutely unethical in all circumstances. Is this something we both agree on?
-Veganism isn’t about morally superiority, but you are using it that way with your arguments. Just look at how you consider people to be not of the proper “mental capacity” if they don’t make that change. Is this something you mis-stated?
You are correct, I was being an asshole. I own rbn a genuine apology…
Absolutely. But that practical reality doesn’t substantiate the insufferable moral superiority vegans are addicted to.
Practical veganism doesn’t finger wag because practical veganism understands how unproductive that is.
The only serious vegans are the ones who advocate for lab cultured proteins. But those are few and far between.