Those who left and those who could not flee speak of a country in ruins and decry the world’s apathy towards the humanitarian crisis and the lack of rights, mainly for women, which a UN report describes as ‘gender apartheid’
Can’t believe the victim blaming going on in this thread. What the fuck? You people can’t understand that ordinary people didn’t want to rise up and risk their lives? They weren’t asking for help from citizens of other countries like them, they were asking for help from other militaries since their own failed them. Yet, the people are to blame? How is that a popular opinion? The complete lack of empathy from the privileged is alarming.
It’s kind of similar to Russia right now; in order for the country to change - and it NEEDS to change - ordinary people would need to take drastic action. The USA in Afghanistan kind of demonstrates just how incredibly hard it is for even an ultra-powerful external force to do that.
Heck, look at formerly-Nazi Germany. It’s now a stupendous place to live, but look at what needed to get it there. In addition to multiple countries toppling the regime, they needed Germans to be active about their beliefs in the future of their nation, to the point they were willing to literally dismantle a wall.
I don’t claim to be able to give them a guidebook, but I definitely think when the Taliban does fall, it would have to come at least from heavy, confrontational, violent rejection of them from the locals.
In fairness, outside of three decades or so in the 20th century, Germany has been one of the nicest places in the world to live in for at least the past 200.
Unfortunately, ordinary people did rise up and risk their lives, against the US and NATO. It wasn’t just that their military failed them, this wasn’t some battlefield loss, or a powerful regime keeping an iron hold on the populace, the military and the people just decided to side with the Taliban, it’s what they voted for in the most primal and basic election that exists.
That doesn’t mean that I’m not sympathetic to the plight of a lot of people that are suffering, there are a lot of people in westernized cities that have lost their freedom and their way of life because of what the rest of their country chose, but that also doesn’t mean that it’s right to cause even more blood and death to override that choice, just because we identify with the oppressed more than the Taliban. That type of mentality is exactly what made the US and NATO so hated in the region, and frankly, I have no reason to think that if we did it again it wouldn’t end with exactly the same result
I don’t think that’s at all safe to say. Do you know how many American Women resisted the right to vote, thinking that politics would be “dirty” for them to get into? Womens suffrage didn’t move forward in a meaningful way until American culture, women included, moved past those ideas. Internalized oppression is a very real thing, and cultures are often enforced by everybody that’s a part of them. You can say that living under the taliban is far worse for women, I’m not arguing that, but people and cultures don’t always evaluate their options so rationally. Plenty of mothers enforce the culture’s oppressive rules on their daughters because it’s what they believe is right, and it’s what they were raised in. Also, plenty of women have just as much reason to hate the US as the men, they’ve lost family and friends to drone bombings and war. It’s totally fair for you to think women would be insane to support the taliban, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
Again, no group is a monolith. There are obviously lots of women who are terrified to lose their freedom, their options for education, and their way of life, but I don’t think we can assume that that is all, or even a majority, of women just because that’s what we think they should want.
I think this is a situation where there just aren’t good answers. I prefer to draw a distinction between the politicians and cowards who handed the keys to the Taliban, vs the women and men and everyday people who opposed the Taliban.
It’s unfair and gross to blame them. It’s also unfair though for them to blame us. We spent a lot of time in Afghanistan. American blood watered the soil, but we saw beautiful flowers bloom. Women were uplifted. The infant mortality rate plummeted. People voted for their leaders.
What more could we do, at this point? I’d like to think that if we had armed more of the uplifted people, they would’ve maintained their government and continued to fight the Taliban. I tell myself that partially though because if that isn’t true, then there truly was nothing different we could’ve done or do now. We’d have to annex territory into a state, maybe.
A full military occupation followed by several years of constructing a new government like what was done in Germany or Japan might have had a chance at working. Our efforts were always half-hearted. There were never enough boots on the ground to properly police the population and there was no political will to try.
Other militaries DID go in and pushed out the Taliban and you know what happened? The people, especially in the rural areas, were indifferent at best and frequently hostile. They didn’t ask for anyone to “help them”, even if they politely accepted it but they still saw them as outsiders vs the Taliban who were at least from there. They also knew the US and others weren’t going to be there forever and the day would eventually come when they’d leave and then what? The Taliban would be there to fill the void. The moral in the ANA was crap so they weren’t going to stop them. So the people kept on the best terms with both sides best they could and tried not to piss off the Taliban so they wouldn’t take revenge when they returned.
So do you suggest they give up their sovereignty and become a territory of a neighbouring country?
The Taliban is allied with China so it won’t be them, if it’s India then China and Pakistan will see it as justification. Then the next closest neighbour would be the US but the people aren’t willing. And if you throw out the Taliban it’s not going to solve anything because they will just forever war
Can’t believe the victim blaming going on in this thread. What the fuck? You people can’t understand that ordinary people didn’t want to rise up and risk their lives? They weren’t asking for help from citizens of other countries like them, they were asking for help from other militaries since their own failed them. Yet, the people are to blame? How is that a popular opinion? The complete lack of empathy from the privileged is alarming.
It’s kind of similar to Russia right now; in order for the country to change - and it NEEDS to change - ordinary people would need to take drastic action. The USA in Afghanistan kind of demonstrates just how incredibly hard it is for even an ultra-powerful external force to do that.
Heck, look at formerly-Nazi Germany. It’s now a stupendous place to live, but look at what needed to get it there. In addition to multiple countries toppling the regime, they needed Germans to be active about their beliefs in the future of their nation, to the point they were willing to literally dismantle a wall.
I don’t claim to be able to give them a guidebook, but I definitely think when the Taliban does fall, it would have to come at least from heavy, confrontational, violent rejection of them from the locals.
In fairness, outside of three decades or so in the 20th century, Germany has been one of the nicest places in the world to live in for at least the past 200.
Unfortunately, ordinary people did rise up and risk their lives, against the US and NATO. It wasn’t just that their military failed them, this wasn’t some battlefield loss, or a powerful regime keeping an iron hold on the populace, the military and the people just decided to side with the Taliban, it’s what they voted for in the most primal and basic election that exists.
That doesn’t mean that I’m not sympathetic to the plight of a lot of people that are suffering, there are a lot of people in westernized cities that have lost their freedom and their way of life because of what the rest of their country chose, but that also doesn’t mean that it’s right to cause even more blood and death to override that choice, just because we identify with the oppressed more than the Taliban. That type of mentality is exactly what made the US and NATO so hated in the region, and frankly, I have no reason to think that if we did it again it wouldn’t end with exactly the same result
You say people, but what you mean is men.
and women
No, I think it’s safe to say a lot of the women views Taliban control with dread.
I don’t think that’s at all safe to say. Do you know how many American Women resisted the right to vote, thinking that politics would be “dirty” for them to get into? Womens suffrage didn’t move forward in a meaningful way until American culture, women included, moved past those ideas. Internalized oppression is a very real thing, and cultures are often enforced by everybody that’s a part of them. You can say that living under the taliban is far worse for women, I’m not arguing that, but people and cultures don’t always evaluate their options so rationally. Plenty of mothers enforce the culture’s oppressive rules on their daughters because it’s what they believe is right, and it’s what they were raised in. Also, plenty of women have just as much reason to hate the US as the men, they’ve lost family and friends to drone bombings and war. It’s totally fair for you to think women would be insane to support the taliban, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
Again, no group is a monolith. There are obviously lots of women who are terrified to lose their freedom, their options for education, and their way of life, but I don’t think we can assume that that is all, or even a majority, of women just because that’s what we think they should want.
I think this is a situation where there just aren’t good answers. I prefer to draw a distinction between the politicians and cowards who handed the keys to the Taliban, vs the women and men and everyday people who opposed the Taliban.
It’s unfair and gross to blame them. It’s also unfair though for them to blame us. We spent a lot of time in Afghanistan. American blood watered the soil, but we saw beautiful flowers bloom. Women were uplifted. The infant mortality rate plummeted. People voted for their leaders.
What more could we do, at this point? I’d like to think that if we had armed more of the uplifted people, they would’ve maintained their government and continued to fight the Taliban. I tell myself that partially though because if that isn’t true, then there truly was nothing different we could’ve done or do now. We’d have to annex territory into a state, maybe.
A full military occupation followed by several years of constructing a new government like what was done in Germany or Japan might have had a chance at working. Our efforts were always half-hearted. There were never enough boots on the ground to properly police the population and there was no political will to try.
Other militaries DID go in and pushed out the Taliban and you know what happened? The people, especially in the rural areas, were indifferent at best and frequently hostile. They didn’t ask for anyone to “help them”, even if they politely accepted it but they still saw them as outsiders vs the Taliban who were at least from there. They also knew the US and others weren’t going to be there forever and the day would eventually come when they’d leave and then what? The Taliban would be there to fill the void. The moral in the ANA was crap so they weren’t going to stop them. So the people kept on the best terms with both sides best they could and tried not to piss off the Taliban so they wouldn’t take revenge when they returned.
Yeah I hate that and am surprised to see that on lemmy
Reading those comments gives feelings of wtf
So do you suggest they give up their sovereignty and become a territory of a neighbouring country?
The Taliban is allied with China so it won’t be them, if it’s India then China and Pakistan will see it as justification. Then the next closest neighbour would be the US but the people aren’t willing. And if you throw out the Taliban it’s not going to solve anything because they will just forever war