What, the most common (and smooth brainned) criticism?
Gotham has literally been cursed half a dozen times over, is governed by some of the most incompetent government officials, and has about nine different covert or overt corrupt groups all vying for control.
Eh, its kind of a mixed bag with batman. Some of the villains are fighting for workers rights or to improve the environment. Others are just absolutely bonkers and somehow get a ton of people to support them. Batman has always been a bit problematic, but that is always the case with anti-heroes.
Anti-heroes shouldn’t be role models, and are supposed to be problematic. The punisher isn’t someone to look up to or base any real solutions on. He is a broken man that was pushed to the extreme and decided extreme measures were needed to fight corruption. Wolverine has lost everything and fights largely for himself (I know there are stories where he grows and learns, but that wasn’t the original basis of the character). Batman is kind of the same. He was a spoiled rich kid that went through trauma and decided to punch his way out of it. Are there better solutions? Maybe, but they wouldn’t make for interesting comic books.
I can see the argument for environmentalism with poison ivy, but who exactly is fighting for workers rights?
That also seems like an excuse to argue that Batman is somehow a bad guy in the situation, which is quite the stretch considering most, if not all, of the villains he faces would see gotham wiped out to see their goals acheived.
It also ignores that in his Bruce persona he does do a lot of charitable work (including environmentalism and worker protections). But, as you say, him sitting in board meetings organizing this stuff wouldnt make for very entertaining stories.
And i was never saying he was a role model, just that the constant mischaracterization is tiresome. Saying that just cause he was born to generational (and fictional) wealth he is automatically a bad guy. That clearly he could be doing better things (that he mostly does do anyway).
Is putting on an animal costume and risking his life to protect others the act of a stable person? Fuck no. But its not like its also inherently harmful either. Especially in the world created around him.
Anarky is anti-state and anti-capitalism. There might be others, but it has been a really long time since I read Batman comics. So my memory is admittedly pretty vague.
He could donate money for the campaigns of good government officials. He could’ve opened a string a mental health facilities because Gotham has a major mental health problem. All these things don’t require Batmaning. Vigilante justice has been shown to increase crime not decrease it. I get you like Batman comics and that’s fine but you can’t act like being Batman is the best use of his money. Even in fictional Gotham.
He could donate money for the campaigns of good government officials.
Like Harvey Dent, who became Two-Face?
He could’ve opened a string a mental health facilities because Gotham has a major mental health problem.
Harley Quinn’s origin story is that she was Joker’s psychiatrist.
IMO: In the real world Joker and the rest of most heroes rogues galleries would have 100% been either sentenced to death (Which while it doesn’t currently exist in Gotham which is in New Jersey, would likely be put into effect considering waves hands broadly at the various levels of shit that has gone down in Gotham over the years.) or murdered by a cop who said they “lunged for his gun”. Superman would be a transitional energy source, we’d be living in luxury gay space communism owing to the innumerable genius level intellects (Atom, Mr. Terrific, Brainiac 5, Blue Beetle, the list goes on.) fixing basically every issue, which makes for a great reality but a really boring comic book universe.
I’m not suggesting an idea for a better comic book lol I’m just saying it’s not wrong to point out being Batman isn’t the way to fix issues it’s an ego thing. Just like iron man.
Didn’t Harvey dent become two face because of Batman? Atleast in the movie it looks like Harvey would’ve faired a lot better without Batman.
I’m working under the assumption that you haven’t read a lot of the comics but if you have, forgive me.
You gotta understand how deeply fucked Gotham is. Like, evil bat god sealed under the city, portal to hell in the asylum, crazy juice from the Lazarus Pit leaking into the water supply which has probably already got chemicals in it that are fucking folks up mentally (along with likely lead pipes but I’m just guessing.), the Illuminati basically running the city, corrupt cops all over, mafia, monsters, people who are basically monsters, there was even a whole plot line where it got kicked out the United States. If any city in real life had that many problems we’d probably level the fucker and start over.
You can’t “pay your taxes” out of something like the Illuminati trying to use zombies to assassinate the police chief.
Didn’t Harvey dent become two face because of Batman? Atleast in the movie it looks like Harvey would’ve faired a lot better without Batman.
In the comics he got hit in the face with acid by a crime boss, iirc during a trial.
I never read any of the comics. Saw a few of the movies.
A lot of those problems Bruce could focus more on better by paying qualified people.
The chemicals and bad pipes could be solved with money.
Illuminati? Isn’t he like the richest person in town? He could use his wealth and power against that as well.
They should probably rebuild the asylum people keep escaping from somewhere that isn’t above a portal to hell. Maybe just cement over the portal.
As for the cursed city and bat god: this is a world where magic exsists, and money exists. He could hire better magic to solve the problem.
Monsters in the streets are a police and military problem. The police may be corrupt but that’s happened a lot in history and what we do is hire better police.
But lets look at Batman. Batman isn’t solving the long term problems like portals to hell and bat gods. The criminals he captures keep getting away, he hasn’t solved the corruption or crime or monsters. Batmaning isn’t working. He should focus on using his wealth to change things and drop the whole Batman thing.
Illuminati? Isn’t he like the richest person in town? He could use his wealth and power against that as well.
No one got arrested for the Panama Papers or Epstein Island so I think you’re overestimating what Bruce could do there.
They should probably rebuild the asylum people keep escaping from somewhere that isn’t above a portal to hell. Maybe just cement over the portal.
Literally every jail in comics is porous. They had a supermax in another dimension people were getting out of.
As for the cursed city and bat god: this is a world where magic exsists, and money exists. He could hire better magic to solve the problem.
“Hey Thor here’s 20 bucks go beat up Satan”. C’mon.
Monsters in the streets are a police and military problem. The police may be corrupt but that’s happened a lot in history and what we do is hire better police.
Who then get frozen solid, eaten by plants, or murdered in a myriad other ways. At some point any cop is going to reasonably say “Nah this shit above my pay grade.” no matter what that paygrade is.
Batmaning isn’t working…
May as well point out that Tom is a terrible cat because he never catches Jerry and in reality they would have called a professional by now. Well obviously in real life but then again in real life Tom would have died after being crushed by a anvil the first time so maybe suspend your disbelief a bit, and even beyond that whats the next cartoon look like after Jerry dies in a fumigation? Tom takes a nap?
We can’t apply reality to an ongoing entertainment medium in one way and ignore it in another. It’s not a “Why didn’t they ride a eagle to Mordor” situation because Lord of the Rings had a ending, and Batman etc. don’t and won’t so long as they keep making money.
“We cant apply reality in one way and ignore it in another”
Why not? You are. You can accept the city being cursed but the idea of bringing in magic to cure it is impossible?
And why can’t they move the asylum away from the portal to hell again?
Fill that portal with concrete.
“No one got arrested for the Panama papers”
That wasn’t the illuminati. The real illuminati got killed, night Templar where burned, Al Capone arrested. People can topple corruption. We do it a lot actually. Epstein was arrested and is now dead.
As for the police giving up why not hire some magic police or mutant police. The money spent on Batman could pay for it.
Tom from tom in Jerry was a terrible cat, that’s kind of the whole joke is he’s bad at hunting mice. Again I’m not saying what is best for an entertaining comic. I’m saying in Batman’s world Batman should spend his money fixing things instead of being Batman, which clearly isn’t working. Yes tom should give up on chasing Jerry as well.
Why not? You are. You can accept the city being cursed but the idea of bringing in magic to cure it is impossible?
The option you suggested was Bruce using riches to get otherworldly beings to fight otherworldly beings. Offering Thor 20 bucks (or 20 million even) to fight Satan is laughable because tf is Thor gonna do with 20 bucks?
And why can’t they move the asylum away from the portal to hell again? Fill that portal with concrete.
Because inevitably they’ll land on a Indian burial ground or chemical dump or NIMBY’s will oppose it, depending on how real we get.
Epstein was arrested and is now dead
And how many people in the files are? One of the more notable ones is the president now.
As for the police giving up why not hire some magic police or mutant police
Why be a magic cop for x dollars a year when they can be a magic criminal for 10x that? Also the legal wrangling for the property damage and civilian casualties from thrown cars and the like would be insane. Those cops would spend more time in courtrooms then on the street. May as well just pay every citizen to leave town, it’d probably be cheaper.
I’m saying in Batman’s world Batman should spend his money fixing things instead of being Batman, which clearly isn’t working.
Really feels like you’re being intentionally obtuse here.
By your metric every superhero and probably every comic book government agency should give up. Lex Luthor keeps doing Lex Luthor shit so Superman should just focus on carrying oil tankers past the Straight of Hormuz to keep gas prices low. Hulks villains keep coming back he should just make coal into diamonds for industry. All these super geniuses should cure cancer and give us unlimited clean energy instead of fighting Thanos. The list goes on.
We can’t call out Batman in comics without calling out every comic character who has some ability that would benefit the world that they instead use to punch baddies in the face. Batman just has one we can contextualize in our world more readily so smug dorks get all “hurr pay your taxes”
The city is designed so that Batman is the solution, any argument like “Batman should just do boring X thing instead” would be foiled by the writers. It’s that simple.
Saying a comic where Batman is responsible with his money would be boring doesn’t mean Batman is doing good. It means it’s just entertainment. That’s fine enjoy your comic. Doesn’t change the fact Batman isn’t acting responsibly. It doesn’t change that Batman is bad for Gotham.
Let me explain it this way.
Horror movie charecter goes to investigate a strange house in the dark. Was it necessary for the movie? Yes. That doesn’t mean they made a good choice. It was a bad idea to go out unarmed to investigate the strange noise in the darkness.
It would be a boring movie had they not done that but that doesn’t change the fact that the idea that person had was bad. It’s fine to call that charecter stupid for doing that.
Doesn’t change the fact Batman isn’t acting responsibly. It doesn’t change that Batman is bad for Gotham.
Was it necessary for the movie? Yes. That doesn’t mean they made a good choice
Depends on how Gotham is written. And as the other commenter has described, Gotham has many reasons why the “responsible” method doesn’t work.
Besides, unlike a single movie, comics are constantly growing and evolving. So whatever plothole the readers come up with, the writers can just patch in the next volume.
So agin your argument is “it’s a comic book” cool. Enjoy your comic book. It doesn’t mean Batman is acting responsibly. An interesting story doesn’t mean the charecter is good.
And as I’ve said to the other commenters each problem has other solutions. Move the asylum away from the pit to hell… Bruce has the power to do that without being Batman. Yet he does not do that.
Let’s talk about “depends on how it’s written”
How it’s written is Batman doesn’t accomplish anything. The same problems keep happening over and over again and he keeps trying to solve it with Batman. That’s how it’s written. It’s written that his batmaning doesn’t accomplish anything at all long term.
It doesn’t mean Batman is acting responsibly. An interesting story doesn’t mean the charecter is good
“Good” and “responsible” have to be judged relative to the context, in this case the comic book world.
problem has other solutions
I read the thread, and each of your solutions has more problems. It’s a long back and forth and after reading it I’m frankly unconvinced that your solutions would work.
How it’s written is Batman doesn’t accomplish anything.
It’s shown that the world is better because of his actions. It’s not completely solved, sure. Crime still exists in our world too, so police are useless and shouldn’t exist? Gotham is just a much tougher problem so the current equilibrium between crime and crime-stoppers, still has a lot of crime.
What, the most common (and smooth brainned) criticism?
Gotham has literally been cursed half a dozen times over, is governed by some of the most incompetent government officials, and has about nine different covert or overt corrupt groups all vying for control.
Taxes aint gonna fix that shit.
Eh, its kind of a mixed bag with batman. Some of the villains are fighting for workers rights or to improve the environment. Others are just absolutely bonkers and somehow get a ton of people to support them. Batman has always been a bit problematic, but that is always the case with anti-heroes.
Anti-heroes shouldn’t be role models, and are supposed to be problematic. The punisher isn’t someone to look up to or base any real solutions on. He is a broken man that was pushed to the extreme and decided extreme measures were needed to fight corruption. Wolverine has lost everything and fights largely for himself (I know there are stories where he grows and learns, but that wasn’t the original basis of the character). Batman is kind of the same. He was a spoiled rich kid that went through trauma and decided to punch his way out of it. Are there better solutions? Maybe, but they wouldn’t make for interesting comic books.
I can see the argument for environmentalism with poison ivy, but who exactly is fighting for workers rights?
That also seems like an excuse to argue that Batman is somehow a bad guy in the situation, which is quite the stretch considering most, if not all, of the villains he faces would see gotham wiped out to see their goals acheived.
It also ignores that in his Bruce persona he does do a lot of charitable work (including environmentalism and worker protections). But, as you say, him sitting in board meetings organizing this stuff wouldnt make for very entertaining stories.
And i was never saying he was a role model, just that the constant mischaracterization is tiresome. Saying that just cause he was born to generational (and fictional) wealth he is automatically a bad guy. That clearly he could be doing better things (that he mostly does do anyway).
Is putting on an animal costume and risking his life to protect others the act of a stable person? Fuck no. But its not like its also inherently harmful either. Especially in the world created around him.
Anarky is anti-state and anti-capitalism. There might be others, but it has been a really long time since I read Batman comics. So my memory is admittedly pretty vague.
deleted by creator
He could donate money for the campaigns of good government officials. He could’ve opened a string a mental health facilities because Gotham has a major mental health problem. All these things don’t require Batmaning. Vigilante justice has been shown to increase crime not decrease it. I get you like Batman comics and that’s fine but you can’t act like being Batman is the best use of his money. Even in fictional Gotham.
Like Harvey Dent, who became Two-Face?
Harley Quinn’s origin story is that she was Joker’s psychiatrist.
IMO: In the real world Joker and the rest of most heroes rogues galleries would have 100% been either sentenced to death (Which while it doesn’t currently exist in Gotham which is in New Jersey, would likely be put into effect considering waves hands broadly at the various levels of shit that has gone down in Gotham over the years.) or murdered by a cop who said they “lunged for his gun”. Superman would be a transitional energy source, we’d be living in luxury gay space communism owing to the innumerable genius level intellects (Atom, Mr. Terrific, Brainiac 5, Blue Beetle, the list goes on.) fixing basically every issue, which makes for a great reality but a really boring comic book universe.
I’m not suggesting an idea for a better comic book lol I’m just saying it’s not wrong to point out being Batman isn’t the way to fix issues it’s an ego thing. Just like iron man.
Didn’t Harvey dent become two face because of Batman? Atleast in the movie it looks like Harvey would’ve faired a lot better without Batman.
I’m working under the assumption that you haven’t read a lot of the comics but if you have, forgive me.
You gotta understand how deeply fucked Gotham is. Like, evil bat god sealed under the city, portal to hell in the asylum, crazy juice from the Lazarus Pit leaking into the water supply which has probably already got chemicals in it that are fucking folks up mentally (along with likely lead pipes but I’m just guessing.), the Illuminati basically running the city, corrupt cops all over, mafia, monsters, people who are basically monsters, there was even a whole plot line where it got kicked out the United States. If any city in real life had that many problems we’d probably level the fucker and start over.
You can’t “pay your taxes” out of something like the Illuminati trying to use zombies to assassinate the police chief.
In the comics he got hit in the face with acid by a crime boss, iirc during a trial.
I never read any of the comics. Saw a few of the movies.
A lot of those problems Bruce could focus more on better by paying qualified people.
The chemicals and bad pipes could be solved with money.
Illuminati? Isn’t he like the richest person in town? He could use his wealth and power against that as well.
They should probably rebuild the asylum people keep escaping from somewhere that isn’t above a portal to hell. Maybe just cement over the portal.
As for the cursed city and bat god: this is a world where magic exsists, and money exists. He could hire better magic to solve the problem.
Monsters in the streets are a police and military problem. The police may be corrupt but that’s happened a lot in history and what we do is hire better police.
But lets look at Batman. Batman isn’t solving the long term problems like portals to hell and bat gods. The criminals he captures keep getting away, he hasn’t solved the corruption or crime or monsters. Batmaning isn’t working. He should focus on using his wealth to change things and drop the whole Batman thing.
No one got arrested for the Panama Papers or Epstein Island so I think you’re overestimating what Bruce could do there.
Literally every jail in comics is porous. They had a supermax in another dimension people were getting out of.
“Hey Thor here’s 20 bucks go beat up Satan”. C’mon.
Who then get frozen solid, eaten by plants, or murdered in a myriad other ways. At some point any cop is going to reasonably say “Nah this shit above my pay grade.” no matter what that paygrade is.
May as well point out that Tom is a terrible cat because he never catches Jerry and in reality they would have called a professional by now. Well obviously in real life but then again in real life Tom would have died after being crushed by a anvil the first time so maybe suspend your disbelief a bit, and even beyond that whats the next cartoon look like after Jerry dies in a fumigation? Tom takes a nap?
We can’t apply reality to an ongoing entertainment medium in one way and ignore it in another. It’s not a “Why didn’t they ride a eagle to Mordor” situation because Lord of the Rings had a ending, and Batman etc. don’t and won’t so long as they keep making money.
“We cant apply reality in one way and ignore it in another”
Why not? You are. You can accept the city being cursed but the idea of bringing in magic to cure it is impossible?
And why can’t they move the asylum away from the portal to hell again? Fill that portal with concrete.
“No one got arrested for the Panama papers”
That wasn’t the illuminati. The real illuminati got killed, night Templar where burned, Al Capone arrested. People can topple corruption. We do it a lot actually. Epstein was arrested and is now dead.
As for the police giving up why not hire some magic police or mutant police. The money spent on Batman could pay for it.
Tom from tom in Jerry was a terrible cat, that’s kind of the whole joke is he’s bad at hunting mice. Again I’m not saying what is best for an entertaining comic. I’m saying in Batman’s world Batman should spend his money fixing things instead of being Batman, which clearly isn’t working. Yes tom should give up on chasing Jerry as well.
The option you suggested was Bruce using riches to get otherworldly beings to fight otherworldly beings. Offering Thor 20 bucks (or 20 million even) to fight Satan is laughable because tf is Thor gonna do with 20 bucks?
Because inevitably they’ll land on a Indian burial ground or chemical dump or NIMBY’s will oppose it, depending on how real we get.
And how many people in the files are? One of the more notable ones is the president now.
Why be a magic cop for x dollars a year when they can be a magic criminal for 10x that? Also the legal wrangling for the property damage and civilian casualties from thrown cars and the like would be insane. Those cops would spend more time in courtrooms then on the street. May as well just pay every citizen to leave town, it’d probably be cheaper.
Really feels like you’re being intentionally obtuse here.
By your metric every superhero and probably every comic book government agency should give up. Lex Luthor keeps doing Lex Luthor shit so Superman should just focus on carrying oil tankers past the Straight of Hormuz to keep gas prices low. Hulks villains keep coming back he should just make coal into diamonds for industry. All these super geniuses should cure cancer and give us unlimited clean energy instead of fighting Thanos. The list goes on.
We can’t call out Batman in comics without calling out every comic character who has some ability that would benefit the world that they instead use to punch baddies in the face. Batman just has one we can contextualize in our world more readily so smug dorks get all “hurr pay your taxes”
The city is designed so that Batman is the solution, any argument like “Batman should just do boring X thing instead” would be foiled by the writers. It’s that simple.
Saying a comic where Batman is responsible with his money would be boring doesn’t mean Batman is doing good. It means it’s just entertainment. That’s fine enjoy your comic. Doesn’t change the fact Batman isn’t acting responsibly. It doesn’t change that Batman is bad for Gotham.
Let me explain it this way.
Horror movie charecter goes to investigate a strange house in the dark. Was it necessary for the movie? Yes. That doesn’t mean they made a good choice. It was a bad idea to go out unarmed to investigate the strange noise in the darkness.
It would be a boring movie had they not done that but that doesn’t change the fact that the idea that person had was bad. It’s fine to call that charecter stupid for doing that.
Batman is stupid for doing a Batman.
Depends on how Gotham is written. And as the other commenter has described, Gotham has many reasons why the “responsible” method doesn’t work.
Besides, unlike a single movie, comics are constantly growing and evolving. So whatever plothole the readers come up with, the writers can just patch in the next volume.
So agin your argument is “it’s a comic book” cool. Enjoy your comic book. It doesn’t mean Batman is acting responsibly. An interesting story doesn’t mean the charecter is good.
And as I’ve said to the other commenters each problem has other solutions. Move the asylum away from the pit to hell… Bruce has the power to do that without being Batman. Yet he does not do that.
Let’s talk about “depends on how it’s written”
How it’s written is Batman doesn’t accomplish anything. The same problems keep happening over and over again and he keeps trying to solve it with Batman. That’s how it’s written. It’s written that his batmaning doesn’t accomplish anything at all long term.
“Good” and “responsible” have to be judged relative to the context, in this case the comic book world.
I read the thread, and each of your solutions has more problems. It’s a long back and forth and after reading it I’m frankly unconvinced that your solutions would work.
It’s shown that the world is better because of his actions. It’s not completely solved, sure. Crime still exists in our world too, so police are useless and shouldn’t exist? Gotham is just a much tougher problem so the current equilibrium between crime and crime-stoppers, still has a lot of crime.
He literally canonically does all of that. Gotham isn’t real life, real life socioeconomics don’t apply.