If you are jokeing and referring to the fairytale then I get it.
Otherwise: no it’s not a tinderbox. I work in construction as a carpenter and we encounter this building method and the fire argument sometimes. Fire needs fuel and an oxidant. No oxygen after the little that is in there and the worst thing is a slow glim and even that won’t happen. The walls covering this straw are made from f30 material that can withstand fire, you guessed it, for 30 minutes. So no flash fires In seconds.
Another example is blow in inaulwyion insulation smartasses made from cellulose recycling. News paper. It has been used for at least two decades in Germany and is never thr cause for a fire.
Rockwoll is the worst. It handles poorly, it is not renewable, it is energy intensive to manufscture, if its older than 1970 it is likely manufactured with asbestos and most importantly it had those tiny scratch fairy’s that attack you for days to come.
I learned recently that the phase shift of rockwoll is terrible because of its low (thermal) mass. Meaning that it will become saturated rather quickly and then dissipates heat onwards. For a few years (20?) there has been an alternative made from wood fibre that is bound together by some degradable agent and impregnated with amonia salts (not great but loads better than the alternatives). it is recyclable as I’m the company picks up the offcuts and reuses them.
But most importantly its high mass (15kg per m²?) Is perfect for home roof insulation because it keeps most of the absorbed energy for about 12 hours before it’s saturated. Keeping you cooler during the day and radiating inside and outside at night. Its called gutex and is very versatile.
Edit: it comes in fluffy and light style too as gutex thermowall. More like rockwoll I guess I can’t recommend it enough. There are generic manufacturers too I am sure.
Massively well built for insulation properties. The biggest thing to bedevil this building material is water. Would absolutely love a small house built with packed straw or even better, cob.
Water in any kind of insulation or basic material (even concrete) would be bad in terms of insulation properties but also in lasting damage to the building substance.
I watched a strawbale building demonstration 20 years ago where they torched a stuccoed strawbale structure that had no treatments: the fire reached over 2000°f and when it was cooled, they cut open the stawbales and showed the fire didn’t burn the bale more than an inch deep. They really do not burn due to the lack of oxygen.
Water on the other hand can rot out a whole wall if it’s not sealed.
That’s what the permitting process is (theoretically) for: to ensure specific, potentially dangerous repairs and construction are done according to safety code.
Hypothetical situation: If you have to get a permit to do general contractor work, and the hole you find violates code, I would assume you would be expected to repair the hole. depending on the size of the hole (are we talking pinholes? Nails? How do you mount shit to a stud on a wall built out of haybales? Is the stud buried in the bale or extra thick to accommodate the thicker wall? I’ve never worked with one of these hay walls, the idea of them is so neat) I’d talk to the owner specifically about how I was repairing it so they could repair any other holes themselves, as that would likely not be the job I was hired to do. I haven’t worked construction since high school tho so ymmv.
Farmers have known for thousands of years that wet straw can spontaneously combust and you’re saying people can’t put a nail in their wall or install a new outdoor light?
What happens if you have a pinhole leak in a pipe?
First: don’t drill into walls from the outside if you don’t know what’s going on. True for all kinds of insulation. Wet polystyrene is also a disaster, albeit being not as fiery.
Second: don’t drill into pipes. For that there are regulations to. Where are conduits supposed to be located and therefore you know where (not) to drill. If it still happens it’s another human error and in my opinion as dangerous as nicking a powerline and creating a small glow (unlikely today thanks to gfci and such).
but to the larger point you made:
i am sure that if you put a lot of straw in a pile and add water and wait and settle that it will generate heat. Composts come to mind. That takes a lot of thickness for the heat to overcome thermodynamic equilibrium and start to burn.
Thr straw in the wall is sealed. But not for heat but air transit. As you can see in the picture of the article that wall has a thickness of about 50?cm, which is not enough to create that heat pile effect when wet. The heat would be dissipated, I am sure.
And what I am even more certain of is German regulations being overly thorough to the point of being anal. There is no way that this hasn’t been tested to death especially with the strong chemical company’s lobby here.
People in construction know what they’re doing and in general know what they’re talking about.
Unfortunately, that excellently constructed home they spent so much effort on will still be sitting there in 5, 15, maybe 50 years from now. And all that time it’s definitely not getting all it’s proper maintenance, and will slowly be dropping in quality.
I doubt these buildings would go up hindenburg style, but after a decade or two of being lived in, fires will not be as easy to put out in a home like this.
Source: not a construction worker, but have worked in construction for a few years here and there and have been working with fire for several decades (and working to make fire safe to handle and trying to fireproof a couple garages)
So when my wife and I started dating, she had been given a car by a sister. That car had 150k miles on it and it got oil changes every 20k miles. In the 90s. Pre-synthetic oil.
Her family (aside from her oldest sister, who has been telling them all the same shit for decades) wonders why my/our cars have always been so nice, and I keep telling them “just keep it clean and do the recommended maintenance”. I don’t know if they think I’m keeping a secret or lying to them, but it’s that easy.
As I’ve primarily rented (nothing much beyond standard rental contracts except a couple double nets, but I knew the owners and they preferred me to their usual maintenance guy) I’m suddenly wondering if I have been forgetting to rotate my foundation or something.
And all that time it’s definitely not getting all it’s proper maintenance
That’s a human problem, not a problem with the material and would affect any home built with any material. Also, what kind of maintenance requires you to open up the walls?
I doubt these buildings would go up hindenburg style, but after a decade or two of being lived in, fires will not be as easy to put out in a home like this.
Anything to support this besides your assumptions? Straw has been in use for a very long time and, generally speaking, this statement doesn’t hold up.
Uh, I don’t think so. But maybe you can teach me something. Do you have an example of a structure that is exposed to the elements and doesn’t need Amy maintenance? while providing good living xonditions of course.
For certain definitions of good, they make these things called quonset huts. The metal ones aren’t half bad if you insulate the fuck out of them (reno winters aren’t that bad, but reno winters in a poorly insulated quonset hut? We had open jam sessions just to keep the building warm)
It can be, it was/is in Canada, treated for rodent resistance, so not hard to do flame too.
Straw has its own issues, if it gets wet, it can spontaneously combust. The heat from decomposition is enough, and it’s self oxidizing too iirc. It being sealed is what makes it easier, the heat can’t escape.
Comvusrion: that’s news to me. I guess it needs to be very specific conditions for that to happen. If I know anything about German rules and regulations is that they are overly thourugh here and would have tested this to death. And there is a very strong insulation lobby by chemical companies here, so there is an incentive to stop these new (old?) techniques.
Edit: though about the combustion and the only thing that makes sense to me is a large mass where heat is trapped and has a runaway reaction like a compost.
literal tinder boxes…
Nah, they smolder, they don’t burn.
It does mean that if a fire is already started and gets past the burn temperature they basically just will burn themselves to ash but not spread
If you are jokeing and referring to the fairytale then I get it.
Otherwise: no it’s not a tinderbox. I work in construction as a carpenter and we encounter this building method and the fire argument sometimes. Fire needs fuel and an oxidant. No oxygen after the little that is in there and the worst thing is a slow glim and even that won’t happen. The walls covering this straw are made from f30 material that can withstand fire, you guessed it, for 30 minutes. So no flash fires In seconds.
Another example is blow in
inaulwyioninsulation smartasses made from cellulose recycling. News paper. It has been used for at least two decades in Germany and is never thr cause for a fire.I’m such a dork for rockwool it’s not funny.
Rockwoll is the worst. It handles poorly, it is not renewable, it is energy intensive to manufscture, if its older than 1970 it is likely manufactured with asbestos and most importantly it had those tiny scratch fairy’s that attack you for days to come.
I learned recently that the phase shift of rockwoll is terrible because of its low (thermal) mass. Meaning that it will become saturated rather quickly and then dissipates heat onwards. For a few years (20?) there has been an alternative made from wood fibre that is bound together by some degradable agent and impregnated with amonia salts (not great but loads better than the alternatives). it is recyclable as I’m the company picks up the offcuts and reuses them. But most importantly its high mass (15kg per m²?) Is perfect for home roof insulation because it keeps most of the absorbed energy for about 12 hours before it’s saturated. Keeping you cooler during the day and radiating inside and outside at night. Its called gutex and is very versatile.
Edit: it comes in fluffy and light style too as gutex thermowall. More like rockwoll I guess I can’t recommend it enough. There are generic manufacturers too I am sure.
Ugh, I guess you meant insulation? And yes, this stuff is widely used in Finland, too.
Thanks. I just figured this was some obscure building material I had never heard of. Maybe Icelandic in origin.
Oh it is. Only known to the very few initiated.
That reminds me, I should add some more inaulwyion to my attic this fall.
Please do. Before it’s too late.
Massively well built for insulation properties. The biggest thing to bedevil this building material is water. Would absolutely love a small house built with packed straw or even better, cob.
Water in any kind of insulation or basic material (even concrete) would be bad in terms of insulation properties but also in lasting damage to the building substance.
Well yeah but water + haybales = fire traditionally (IIRC the drying process is exothermic somehow?)
In a large pile like a compost it makes sense, but not in a thin (relatively) wall segment. It doesn’t make sense to me …
What if the f30 material is damaged or air gaps left by installer?
How resilient and sensitive to flaws in construction?
I watched a strawbale building demonstration 20 years ago where they torched a stuccoed strawbale structure that had no treatments: the fire reached over 2000°f and when it was cooled, they cut open the stawbales and showed the fire didn’t burn the bale more than an inch deep. They really do not burn due to the lack of oxygen.
Water on the other hand can rot out a whole wall if it’s not sealed.
Are you a firefighter or family because those are the only folk I can think of who get to go to those and they sound fun as hell
Same with wood in fires. Large crossections have a great fire rating because the outer layer chars and keeps oxygen away.
Then you violated the building code. Regarding fire and arguably more importantly air tightness to prevent condensation and resulting water damage.
In attics its mandatory to do a blow out test where you create overpressure and search for air movement and leaks with a smoke machine.
Rule of thumb is outer walls wind tight, inside perimeter walls air tight. (Diffusion open)
and what if the owner added a hole because they felt like it?
That’s what the permitting process is (theoretically) for: to ensure specific, potentially dangerous repairs and construction are done according to safety code.
Hypothetical situation: If you have to get a permit to do general contractor work, and the hole you find violates code, I would assume you would be expected to repair the hole. depending on the size of the hole (are we talking pinholes? Nails? How do you mount shit to a stud on a wall built out of haybales? Is the stud buried in the bale or extra thick to accommodate the thicker wall? I’ve never worked with one of these hay walls, the idea of them is so neat) I’d talk to the owner specifically about how I was repairing it so they could repair any other holes themselves, as that would likely not be the job I was hired to do. I haven’t worked construction since high school tho so ymmv.
in what world do people hire contractors that repair unnecessary things that are “required by code”?
maybe take that one to no stupid questions
That wouldn’t be good for a bunch of reasons. Mainly because the owner is obviously stupid.
That being said, I’d argue that Cars aren’t safe because if you light a fire under it and wait for a few minutes it goes up in flames.
Same reasoning.
Farmers have known for thousands of years that wet straw can spontaneously combust and you’re saying people can’t put a nail in their wall or install a new outdoor light?
What happens if you have a pinhole leak in a pipe?
First: don’t drill into walls from the outside if you don’t know what’s going on. True for all kinds of insulation. Wet polystyrene is also a disaster, albeit being not as fiery.
Second: don’t drill into pipes. For that there are regulations to. Where are conduits supposed to be located and therefore you know where (not) to drill. If it still happens it’s another human error and in my opinion as dangerous as nicking a powerline and creating a small glow (unlikely today thanks to gfci and such).
but to the larger point you made: i am sure that if you put a lot of straw in a pile and add water and wait and settle that it will generate heat. Composts come to mind. That takes a lot of thickness for the heat to overcome thermodynamic equilibrium and start to burn. Thr straw in the wall is sealed. But not for heat but air transit. As you can see in the picture of the article that wall has a thickness of about 50?cm, which is not enough to create that heat pile effect when wet. The heat would be dissipated, I am sure.
And what I am even more certain of is German regulations being overly thorough to the point of being anal. There is no way that this hasn’t been tested to death especially with the strong chemical company’s lobby here.
People in construction know what they’re doing and in general know what they’re talking about.
Unfortunately, that excellently constructed home they spent so much effort on will still be sitting there in 5, 15, maybe 50 years from now. And all that time it’s definitely not getting all it’s proper maintenance, and will slowly be dropping in quality.
I doubt these buildings would go up hindenburg style, but after a decade or two of being lived in, fires will not be as easy to put out in a home like this.
Source: not a construction worker, but have worked in construction for a few years here and there and have been working with fire for several decades (and working to make fire safe to handle and trying to fireproof a couple garages)
So when my wife and I started dating, she had been given a car by a sister. That car had 150k miles on it and it got oil changes every 20k miles. In the 90s. Pre-synthetic oil.
Her family (aside from her oldest sister, who has been telling them all the same shit for decades) wonders why my/our cars have always been so nice, and I keep telling them “just keep it clean and do the recommended maintenance”. I don’t know if they think I’m keeping a secret or lying to them, but it’s that easy.
As I’ve primarily rented (nothing much beyond standard rental contracts except a couple double nets, but I knew the owners and they preferred me to their usual maintenance guy) I’m suddenly wondering if I have been forgetting to rotate my foundation or something.
That’s a human problem, not a problem with the material and would affect any home built with any material. Also, what kind of maintenance requires you to open up the walls?
Anything to support this besides your assumptions? Straw has been in use for a very long time and, generally speaking, this statement doesn’t hold up.
https://www.nachi.org/straw-bale-home-basics-history.htm
a good material for a house will survive neglect.
Uh, I don’t think so. But maybe you can teach me something. Do you have an example of a structure that is exposed to the elements and doesn’t need Amy maintenance? while providing good living xonditions of course.
For certain definitions of good, they make these things called quonset huts. The metal ones aren’t half bad if you insulate the fuck out of them (reno winters aren’t that bad, but reno winters in a poorly insulated quonset hut? We had open jam sessions just to keep the building warm)
What an absolutely ridiculous statement to make. I can only assume you’re trolling.
It’s also treated with a fire retardant.
Do you know if the straw is treated as well?
It can be, it was/is in Canada, treated for rodent resistance, so not hard to do flame too.
Straw has its own issues, if it gets wet, it can spontaneously combust. The heat from decomposition is enough, and it’s self oxidizing too iirc. It being sealed is what makes it easier, the heat can’t escape.
Treatment: thanks for the Info
Comvusrion: that’s news to me. I guess it needs to be very specific conditions for that to happen. If I know anything about German rules and regulations is that they are overly thourugh here and would have tested this to death. And there is a very strong insulation lobby by chemical companies here, so there is an incentive to stop these new (old?) techniques.
Edit: though about the combustion and the only thing that makes sense to me is a large mass where heat is trapped and has a runaway reaction like a compost.
I assume it’s cheaper and easier to build with, but is it as structurally sound?
It is usually in between timber frames. Standalone I haven’t encountered it.
Edit: it is foremost used because of the great insulation and room climate properties. Also it is renewable and local. So a bunch of pluses.
In a country that starting to have wildfire seasons.