I disagree. Jango Fett, coupled with Sifo Dyas (who was also buddies with Dooku) disappearing, and the fact the order for the clone army went ahead despite his disappearance makes it reasonable to suspect the clone army was part of the trap.
It doesn’t rise to the level of “plot hole” but the plot is far from airtight.
They (the Jedi council) discovered that Dooku was evil after/during the time they were forced to use the clones to rescue anakin and co. So like, yeah, the group of people involved in the clone creation was sus, but at the same time they were already neck deep in a war when it all came out and they had a moment to think about things.
A better Jedi council wouldn’t have accepted the positions of generals over a slave army.
A better Jedi council would’ve stopped at using slave soldiers to rescue a pair of Jedi and a politician.
A better Jedi council would have been suspicious of a slave army being made in their name.
A better Jedi council would have treated anakin as a person first, instead of as child soldier / prophesied savior.
The better Jedi council didn’t exist. It was an indolent, slow, and prideful Jedi council, and that’s why they failed. That was the whole point; to stuck up in their own assess to see what’s going on right in front of them.
I think it makes for a great story, if not the one that we might’ve hoped for.
Realistically the problem is that Lucas never stopped to ask himself “wait, isn’t this a slave army?” and no one had the power to call him out because he was George Lucas.
I think Lucas was pretty decided in his portrayal of declining republics and their fall into empire. The plot was a mess, and his inability to write dialog gives an even worse impression of it all, but I think the themes were well laid.
Yaddle’s death by the hands of Dooku appears in current Canon in the series Tales of the Jedi, which is a pretty good mini-series in the Clone Wars art style.
The big driver was necessity though. They were just on the cusp of war with the trade federation so it was either use the clone army or the republic straight up loses the war. The Jedi alone couldn’t take on the trade federation. Even if they were suspicious, there were very few options on the table.
Yeah, but technically the Trade Federation was the Republic’s problem, not necessarily the Jedi’s. They could’ve just refused to be involved to begin with.
I always felt like there was a gap in this portion with regards to my understanding. The galactic republic is billions of citizens and thousands of worlds but no one can form an army to defend it without the clones? I mean, Naboo had Star fighters, other worlds have defense forces, but no one can raise an army without the clones? It seems like the republic citizens were ambivalent to the defense of the republic and just shirked responsibility to the senate who only had the Jedi to lean on. It was “someone else’s problem”. So maybe the Jedi could have said “fix yo own shit” but it would have shown the shakiness of the republic and without the republic, the Jedi were just a small magical sect of individuals who did not have the numbers to be statistically relevant in the galaxy.
and this is where “the Jedi are corrupt bureaucrats” starts to make sense. At the time they were already view as the republic’s police instead of a religion that promotes peace.
Palpatine was betting on the jedi being corrupt idiots and he won easy
That’s all true, but the Jedi still had every reason to probe every aspect of the clone program, closely enough to find out about Order 66. Especially since they already suspected Sidious was high up in Palpatine’s government and may have a degree of control over the clones.
LOL, yeah that is fair. Just assign at least a committee to evaluate the reliability of your only effective weapon against your opposing military force. That’s fair and when you put it that way, it makes it seem like the Jedi were just like, “massive army created by our opposition? Why shouldn’t I use it?”
The funniest part is that ‘straight up lose the war’ was actually a pretty solid choice for the Jedi. It’d force the republic to face the consequences of its actions with regards to the outer rim, force palpatine to stall and delay the droid army, and it would give dooku and the separatists time to get a solid outer rim government going. There’s a lot of negatives too I’m sure, but at least they wouldn’t be personally leading enslaved people to their deaths against a droid army.
Chapter 5 is a jump cut to post using the clones to rescue anakin, but before the rest of the war. The earlier chapters are an intro on why obiwan is different enough to stop things.
I disagree. Jango Fett, coupled with Sifo Dyas (who was also buddies with Dooku) disappearing, and the fact the order for the clone army went ahead despite his disappearance makes it reasonable to suspect the clone army was part of the trap.
It doesn’t rise to the level of “plot hole” but the plot is far from airtight.
They (the Jedi council) discovered that Dooku was evil after/during the time they were forced to use the clones to rescue anakin and co. So like, yeah, the group of people involved in the clone creation was sus, but at the same time they were already neck deep in a war when it all came out and they had a moment to think about things.
A better Jedi council wouldn’t have accepted the positions of generals over a slave army.
A better Jedi council would’ve stopped at using slave soldiers to rescue a pair of Jedi and a politician.
A better Jedi council would have been suspicious of a slave army being made in their name.
A better Jedi council would have treated anakin as a person first, instead of as child soldier / prophesied savior.
The better Jedi council didn’t exist. It was an indolent, slow, and prideful Jedi council, and that’s why they failed. That was the whole point; to stuck up in their own assess to see what’s going on right in front of them.
I think it makes for a great story, if not the one that we might’ve hoped for.
Realistically the problem is that Lucas never stopped to ask himself “wait, isn’t this a slave army?” and no one had the power to call him out because he was George Lucas.
I think Lucas was pretty decided in his portrayal of declining republics and their fall into empire. The plot was a mess, and his inability to write dialog gives an even worse impression of it all, but I think the themes were well laid.
The council would’ve been better if Yaddle and Yarael Poof had avoided their deaths.
If you say so. AFAIK that’s legends stuff which I am not actually versed in.
Yaddle’s death by the hands of Dooku appears in current Canon in the series Tales of the Jedi, which is a pretty good mini-series in the Clone Wars art style.
The big driver was necessity though. They were just on the cusp of war with the trade federation so it was either use the clone army or the republic straight up loses the war. The Jedi alone couldn’t take on the trade federation. Even if they were suspicious, there were very few options on the table.
Yeah, but technically the Trade Federation was the Republic’s problem, not necessarily the Jedi’s. They could’ve just refused to be involved to begin with.
I always felt like there was a gap in this portion with regards to my understanding. The galactic republic is billions of citizens and thousands of worlds but no one can form an army to defend it without the clones? I mean, Naboo had Star fighters, other worlds have defense forces, but no one can raise an army without the clones? It seems like the republic citizens were ambivalent to the defense of the republic and just shirked responsibility to the senate who only had the Jedi to lean on. It was “someone else’s problem”. So maybe the Jedi could have said “fix yo own shit” but it would have shown the shakiness of the republic and without the republic, the Jedi were just a small magical sect of individuals who did not have the numbers to be statistically relevant in the galaxy.
and this is where “the Jedi are corrupt bureaucrats” starts to make sense. At the time they were already view as the republic’s police instead of a religion that promotes peace.
Palpatine was betting on the jedi being corrupt idiots and he won easy
That’s all true, but the Jedi still had every reason to probe every aspect of the clone program, closely enough to find out about Order 66. Especially since they already suspected Sidious was high up in Palpatine’s government and may have a degree of control over the clones.
LOL, yeah that is fair. Just assign at least a committee to evaluate the reliability of your only effective weapon against your opposing military force. That’s fair and when you put it that way, it makes it seem like the Jedi were just like, “massive army created by our opposition? Why shouldn’t I use it?”
The funniest part is that ‘straight up lose the war’ was actually a pretty solid choice for the Jedi. It’d force the republic to face the consequences of its actions with regards to the outer rim, force palpatine to stall and delay the droid army, and it would give dooku and the separatists time to get a solid outer rim government going. There’s a lot of negatives too I’m sure, but at least they wouldn’t be personally leading enslaved people to their deaths against a droid army.
Oh and also, here’s a fancy that does exactly that, which I adore. https://m.fanfiction.net/s/12986683/5/
Chapter 5 is a jump cut to post using the clones to rescue anakin, but before the rest of the war. The earlier chapters are an intro on why obiwan is different enough to stop things.