And that’s just a small portion of the US government propaganda campaigns they’ve run ON AMERICAN CITIZENS AND CULTURE. Not including things like the outlawing of Anarchism, or whatever the hell people like Allen Dulles and George Bush Senior were up to…
…and all of this is before even asking about overseas propaganda campaigns.
So yes, the CIA has definitely been heavily involved in curbing American opinions, and massively suppressing support for Communism and Socialism in America.
American Free speech - but only to an extent, after that you’ll have to deal with government interference.
Yes, and anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do.
The critique cuts both ways. I don’t think either side has much of a solution… But right now - in the west - it’s clear that too much Socialism is not the problem.
The West is Cappoed out right now. Kind of tired of it.
anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do
I don’t think either side has much of a solution
You are conflating not being a tankie with being an anticommunist.
Being a communist shouldn’t stop you from ciritquing your own state. A healthy communist state allows for open critique and discussion of what works and what doesn’t. Otherwise you risk autocracy.
And I would hazard calling China and Russia communist states. Russia doesn’t even call itself communist anymore. And China is a one party autocracy with a free market. They’re only communists in name.
I’m not really interested in defining them or getting into that kind of argument here (not being a Communist, I don’t want to defend it).
…but I believe Market Socialism is a thing. Capitalism is (in Marxist doctrine) considered a stage of Communism, and that these discussions often overlook Vietnam…
…Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they’ve just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.
… so like, whilst I don’t like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand your read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)… I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.
To use an analogy being anti-tankie often comes across as basically saying we need to reconsider what the alt-right are saying during the Trump era… And exceedingly often comes down to “a tankie once called me a name I don’t like”.
In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate). I don’t like anti-tankies because they’re having a reactionary response rather than just going “those guys are dicks, but I understand within a Capitalist society”
Instead anti-tankies go, “those guys are dicks for calling me that of all people, I’m going to form a club to complain about it… Even though billionaire crony Capitalism is really the problem right now”.
So yeah, I don’t like either of them, but I understand uptight commies better than I do the reaction to them. I can hide and block the commies pretty easy.
so like, whilst I don’t like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand your read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)… I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.
I agree.
…Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they’ve just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.
Always assumed they did what china did. They realized that the tool to stay in power was stability and growth, so they incentivized development on the local and national level for climbing the party ladder and good boy points. But it’s nice to see them actually follow through with the ideals as well.
In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate).
I understand how that can be tiring. I’ve stopped talking to anyone who purports any fascist or anti-socialist ideals. They will never listen. They are too comfortable with the power they hold to reconsider. On lemmy, I have come across far too many tankies who confuse me to no end. They come off as religious nuts who pretend to like the same ideals I do. They are in my opinion just as worse as the anti-communists.
I don’t want to be associated with them. And I think the political spectrum is far too complicated to neatly divide people into simple categories. But it’s easier to do and who has the time to actually get to know strangers online. So, as a rule, I am against any tankie or fascist.
Weirdly enough my understanding is that Vietnam were more open to Capitalism because Nixon offered them embargo free international trade. I guess both sides were sore from the Vietnam war…
…Vietnam had regional problems, which resulted in Communist Vietnam going to war with Communist Cambodia and putting an end to the Khymer Rogue and the dictatorship of Pol Pot.
Nixon still had bits of a secret sidewar going in Laos, and was looking after his legacy of opening up relations with China… So Vietnam was given more opportunities than most Communist countries are allowed.
…and other communist nations have also been to war with each other… And lots of fascism has been associated with being anti-communist.
So these are some of the topics that as a Westerner I feel liberated by learning about. They’re topics that when I learn about them it exposes limitations on our education systems, and cultural propaganda that’s still ongoing under Capitalism.
We’re taught all communism is the same, that Capitalism could never be fascist, and that profit is the point to life…
Of course, the CIA and US Government does actually do propaganda campaigns. Whether via things like the Voice Of America radio station. Or like
Domestic Anti-Communist stuff:
Operation Mockingbird bird: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird,
The Crusade for Cultural Freedom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_for_Freedom
The Congress for Cultural Freedom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_for_Cultural_Freedom
The Red Scare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare
More general fuckery:
Lavender Scare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_scare
The suppression of the PRISM information program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM
Suppression of wartime massacres: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukaradeeb_wedding_party_massacre
The assassin of Fred Hampton (American communist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Fred_Hampton
The killing of MLK (American Socialist).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Martin_Luther_King_Jr.
And that’s just a small portion of the US government propaganda campaigns they’ve run ON AMERICAN CITIZENS AND CULTURE. Not including things like the outlawing of Anarchism, or whatever the hell people like Allen Dulles and George Bush Senior were up to…
…and all of this is before even asking about overseas propaganda campaigns.
So yes, the CIA has definitely been heavily involved in curbing American opinions, and massively suppressing support for Communism and Socialism in America.
American Free speech - but only to an extent, after that you’ll have to deal with government interference.
While they whole heartedly suck, it doesn’t mean they’re responsible for everything that sucks.
Tankies don’t look at the shitty things China and Russia do.
Yes, and anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do.
The critique cuts both ways. I don’t think either side has much of a solution… But right now - in the west - it’s clear that too much Socialism is not the problem.
The West is Cappoed out right now. Kind of tired of it.
Hey kid, wanna buy us a new Data Center?
No thanks Sir, please leave me alone.
You are conflating not being a tankie with being an anticommunist.
Being a communist shouldn’t stop you from ciritquing your own state. A healthy communist state allows for open critique and discussion of what works and what doesn’t. Otherwise you risk autocracy.
And I would hazard calling China and Russia communist states. Russia doesn’t even call itself communist anymore. And China is a one party autocracy with a free market. They’re only communists in name.
I’m not really interested in defining them or getting into that kind of argument here (not being a Communist, I don’t want to defend it).
…but I believe Market Socialism is a thing. Capitalism is (in Marxist doctrine) considered a stage of Communism, and that these discussions often overlook Vietnam…
…Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they’ve just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.
… so like, whilst I don’t like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand your read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)… I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.
To use an analogy being anti-tankie often comes across as basically saying we need to reconsider what the alt-right are saying during the Trump era… And exceedingly often comes down to “a tankie once called me a name I don’t like”.
In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate). I don’t like anti-tankies because they’re having a reactionary response rather than just going “those guys are dicks, but I understand within a Capitalist society”
Instead anti-tankies go, “those guys are dicks for calling me that of all people, I’m going to form a club to complain about it… Even though billionaire crony Capitalism is really the problem right now”.
So yeah, I don’t like either of them, but I understand uptight commies better than I do the reaction to them. I can hide and block the commies pretty easy.
I agree.
Always assumed they did what china did. They realized that the tool to stay in power was stability and growth, so they incentivized development on the local and national level for climbing the party ladder and good boy points. But it’s nice to see them actually follow through with the ideals as well.
I understand how that can be tiring. I’ve stopped talking to anyone who purports any fascist or anti-socialist ideals. They will never listen. They are too comfortable with the power they hold to reconsider. On lemmy, I have come across far too many tankies who confuse me to no end. They come off as religious nuts who pretend to like the same ideals I do. They are in my opinion just as worse as the anti-communists.
I don’t want to be associated with them. And I think the political spectrum is far too complicated to neatly divide people into simple categories. But it’s easier to do and who has the time to actually get to know strangers online. So, as a rule, I am against any tankie or fascist.
Weirdly enough my understanding is that Vietnam were more open to Capitalism because Nixon offered them embargo free international trade. I guess both sides were sore from the Vietnam war…
…Vietnam had regional problems, which resulted in Communist Vietnam going to war with Communist Cambodia and putting an end to the Khymer Rogue and the dictatorship of Pol Pot.
Nixon still had bits of a secret sidewar going in Laos, and was looking after his legacy of opening up relations with China… So Vietnam was given more opportunities than most Communist countries are allowed.
…and other communist nations have also been to war with each other… And lots of fascism has been associated with being anti-communist.
So these are some of the topics that as a Westerner I feel liberated by learning about. They’re topics that when I learn about them it exposes limitations on our education systems, and cultural propaganda that’s still ongoing under Capitalism.
We’re taught all communism is the same, that Capitalism could never be fascist, and that profit is the point to life…
I’m tired boss.
Don’t forget their chatbot!