A vegan view requires no amount of anthropomorphizing. It’s the traits that humans share with non human animals that makes what we do to them unjust. The traits that make us different are not required, and neither do they justify our treatment of animals.
Emotionally resonating with animals also does not require anthropomorphization. Empathy and sympathy between humans and non human animals is default in most people because of our shared experiences. A lack of is a sign of, at the very least, selective sociopathy, like the kind soldiers might be trained to have in regards to enemy combatants.
Veganism also is not a diet, I think that’s important to say. And veganism doesn’t create health disasters out of thin air. There’s a plethora of nutritional studies backing up how eating with vegan restrictions can be more than adequate.
All true, but shock value anti-carnism of course plays on anthropomorphism, which is heavily baked into our culture with kids TV overwhelmingly featuring anthropomorphised animal characters and pet ownership being widespread.
I mean it’s fine to point out that apparent hypocrisy, as the billboard campaign (where do you draw the line) in my country recently did. But it’s not particularly persuasive from a logical perspective, just a useful cultural lever.
An example; Vegans won’t eat honey. There are various reasons why not, but one I have heard is that they disagree with the ‘exploitation’ of the bees.
Exploitation is, as far as we know, a human concept that bees have no comprehension of. How can you argue an insect is being exploited without anthropomorphising it?
Are you honestly arguing the bee is aware of its exploitation? Or are you extending your own feelings to that bee as if you were in the bee’s position?
Exploitation doesn’t require the comprehension of the exploited. In fact, it’s usually the case the exploited is unaware of it. If I tricked my brother into doing my chores for me, that’s exploitation. If I take an animal’s food away (thus requiring it to gather more than usual), that’s exploitation.
It’s an insect, jack. Do I exploit my bicycle when I ride it? Do you exploit your gut biome when you digest something? What about the bacteria in water treatment plants? Yeast? How small does an animal have to be to not count as exploitation, if bees can be exploited despite having a central nervous system so small it can’t meaningfully feel emotions?
IDK, I don’t have a boat in this race, but refusing to eat honey leaves the realm of personal ethics/activism and enters the realm of dogma IMO.
Yes, you exploit your bicycle when you ride it. The same way you exploit your knowledge of your city to navigate it. That is what the word means. There is no negative connotation because you are not exploiting an unconsenting sentient creature.
Just like how you assume for the protection of children that children are not capable of consenting to exploitation, vegans make the same assumption about animals. And since they cannot consent, we do not exploit them.
Bacteria and yeast aren’t animals. They aren’t sentient, they have no perception of the world around them, they don’t have feelings. That’s the difference. Nearly every animal (yes, even insects) is sentient. We may not understand exactly what it feels like to be a bee (what kinds of emotions they can experience), but it’s better to err on the side of not hurting an animal than assume they are mindless little robots.
Given, this is usually not the primary focus of vegan activism. Taking some food from some bees versus raising cows in the pure hellscape that is factory farming… There’s a very obvious greater evil happening. Let’s not let the minutia of veganism derail from the greater picture.
I suppose I just disagree with the premise… Insects ARE mindless little robots. They can react to stimuli, and have some basic behavior, but to say they experience emotions is a huge stretch. Bees have less than a million neurons, 10,000x less than a human.
If we were to follow that logic, we should keep brain-dead people “alive” on the basis that the peripheral nervous system has neurons and can independently react to basic stimuli. Thankfully doctors aren’t quite so radical.
I would be VERY interested in seeing the paper on that. Because all I’ve read about it is that bees are sentient because they react to painful stimuli, but that’s about the extent of it. To say they have feelings in any meaningful way is an entirely different conversation.
Exploitation of a resource is different to exploitation by a company of a worker (meaning it’s unfair or underhanded)
The vegan argument for ‘exploitation’ of bees uses the later definition.
If bees were just a resource there wouldn’t be moral consideration of the bees and vegans wouldn’t mind eating honey because there wouldn’t be anything inherently wrong in doing so. Just like smashing a rock on the ground has no inherent moral element.
it’s not a different definition at all. it’s a difference of morals. bees are only different from rocks ethically of you have an ethical system that defines them as such.
Describing vegans as making major dietary changes because they “saw one video” is a pretty dishonest interpretation. Rigorously sticking to a vegan diet can be fairly difficult, and requires you to be very aware of exactly what you’re eating – including innocuous seeming things like food dyes and white sugar, which can often be made of animal products. To me, that doesn’t read as impulsive, but instead disciplined.
Furthermore, while the decision to switch to going vegan could theoretically sometimes be done on impulse, one still has to make the decision every single day. It’s not just a decision you make and it’s done, it’s one you must always choose to continue to make. A vegan has to decide to continue to be vegan every day, likely while under scrutiny of themself and others.
I’ll grant you I said video, singular. I would have been more correct saying videos because that’s what the person holding the sign in the picture thinks is the case.
They are implying pretty clearly they are vegan because they watched vegan propaganda videos.
Again, I’m NOT making the argument that if you watch a vegan propaganda video or videos you’ll become vegan, you’re disagreeing with the person in the picture.
What had the biggest impact on me was videos of pigs and cows being cute and dog like. Nothing else changed my view like a cow hopping around like a happy idiot.
(I’m not vegan but I eat pescatarian now and feel myself on the way to a bit more)
I’ve seen only a few you listed like cowspiracy and seaspiracy and a majority of those two films were just facts and diagrams and interviews. So I call bullshit. I know this is a bad faith attempt I mean seriously, “impulsive highly emotional person”? Maybe people who care for the environment see the facts and diagrams and convert because it isn’t possible to feed this many people sustainably. It’s not a health disaster to be vegan either, that’s ridiculous of you to say. This won’t shock you because you came here to troll but vegans can go through pregnancy just fine, breast feed just fine too, something that shouldn’t be possible if it was such a health disaster. A lot of our food is already fortified with vitamins so you don’t need meat for b12 or iron, just eat a bowl of cereal with soy milk. I’m in the process of going vegan so not 100% but I’m so tired of seeing trolls come to vegan communities to talk about how much they don’t care about animals or the planet. And how manly and fulfilled it makes them feel to eat bacon. We get it, you’re boring and have nothing new to say.
I have no doubt you wanting to become vegan comes from a genuine place and you’re trying to do the right thing.
I respect your choice and I hope it works for you.
If at some point in the future though you decide you no longer wish to be vegan I’d respect that choice as well and I don’t think it would make you a bad person.
If this sign were true I’d be a vegan 10 times over.
I’ve watched all vegan propaganda I’ve ever had sent to me:
Dominion. Earthling. Land of hope and Glory. The greatest speech ever (Gary Yourofsky) Cowspiracy Seaspiracy Don’t watch
Send me more I’ll view it.
This type of propaganda, in my experience, works on impulsive highly emotional people who willingly anthropomorphise animals.
A major diet change like becoming vegan shouldn’t happen because you saw one video. That’s a health disaster waiting to happen.
A vegan view requires no amount of anthropomorphizing. It’s the traits that humans share with non human animals that makes what we do to them unjust. The traits that make us different are not required, and neither do they justify our treatment of animals.
Emotionally resonating with animals also does not require anthropomorphization. Empathy and sympathy between humans and non human animals is default in most people because of our shared experiences. A lack of is a sign of, at the very least, selective sociopathy, like the kind soldiers might be trained to have in regards to enemy combatants.
Veganism also is not a diet, I think that’s important to say. And veganism doesn’t create health disasters out of thin air. There’s a plethora of nutritional studies backing up how eating with vegan restrictions can be more than adequate.
All true, but shock value anti-carnism of course plays on anthropomorphism, which is heavily baked into our culture with kids TV overwhelmingly featuring anthropomorphised animal characters and pet ownership being widespread.
I mean it’s fine to point out that apparent hypocrisy, as the billboard campaign (where do you draw the line) in my country recently did. But it’s not particularly persuasive from a logical perspective, just a useful cultural lever.
I disagree.
An example; Vegans won’t eat honey. There are various reasons why not, but one I have heard is that they disagree with the ‘exploitation’ of the bees.
Exploitation is, as far as we know, a human concept that bees have no comprehension of. How can you argue an insect is being exploited without anthropomorphising it?
Are you honestly arguing the bee is aware of its exploitation? Or are you extending your own feelings to that bee as if you were in the bee’s position?
Exploitation doesn’t require the comprehension of the exploited. In fact, it’s usually the case the exploited is unaware of it. If I tricked my brother into doing my chores for me, that’s exploitation. If I take an animal’s food away (thus requiring it to gather more than usual), that’s exploitation.
It’s an insect, jack. Do I exploit my bicycle when I ride it? Do you exploit your gut biome when you digest something? What about the bacteria in water treatment plants? Yeast? How small does an animal have to be to not count as exploitation, if bees can be exploited despite having a central nervous system so small it can’t meaningfully feel emotions?
IDK, I don’t have a boat in this race, but refusing to eat honey leaves the realm of personal ethics/activism and enters the realm of dogma IMO.
Yes, you exploit your bicycle when you ride it. The same way you exploit your knowledge of your city to navigate it. That is what the word means. There is no negative connotation because you are not exploiting an unconsenting sentient creature.
Just like how you assume for the protection of children that children are not capable of consenting to exploitation, vegans make the same assumption about animals. And since they cannot consent, we do not exploit them.
Bacteria and yeast aren’t animals. They aren’t sentient, they have no perception of the world around them, they don’t have feelings. That’s the difference. Nearly every animal (yes, even insects) is sentient. We may not understand exactly what it feels like to be a bee (what kinds of emotions they can experience), but it’s better to err on the side of not hurting an animal than assume they are mindless little robots.
Given, this is usually not the primary focus of vegan activism. Taking some food from some bees versus raising cows in the pure hellscape that is factory farming… There’s a very obvious greater evil happening. Let’s not let the minutia of veganism derail from the greater picture.
I suppose I just disagree with the premise… Insects ARE mindless little robots. They can react to stimuli, and have some basic behavior, but to say they experience emotions is a huge stretch. Bees have less than a million neurons, 10,000x less than a human.
If we were to follow that logic, we should keep brain-dead people “alive” on the basis that the peripheral nervous system has neurons and can independently react to basic stimuli. Thankfully doctors aren’t quite so radical.
I mean, this has been researched. It’s not just my opinion, researchers agree that bees are sentient and have feelings.
I would be VERY interested in seeing the paper on that. Because all I’ve read about it is that bees are sentient because they react to painful stimuli, but that’s about the extent of it. To say they have feelings in any meaningful way is an entirely different conversation.
you can exploit a well or a field.
Yes.
Words can have more than one meaning.
Exploitation of a resource is different to exploitation by a company of a worker (meaning it’s unfair or underhanded)
The vegan argument for ‘exploitation’ of bees uses the later definition.
If bees were just a resource there wouldn’t be moral consideration of the bees and vegans wouldn’t mind eating honey because there wouldn’t be anything inherently wrong in doing so. Just like smashing a rock on the ground has no inherent moral element.
it’s not a different definition at all. it’s a difference of morals. bees are only different from rocks ethically of you have an ethical system that defines them as such.
Describing vegans as making major dietary changes because they “saw one video” is a pretty dishonest interpretation. Rigorously sticking to a vegan diet can be fairly difficult, and requires you to be very aware of exactly what you’re eating – including innocuous seeming things like food dyes and white sugar, which can often be made of animal products. To me, that doesn’t read as impulsive, but instead disciplined.
Furthermore, while the decision to switch to going vegan could theoretically sometimes be done on impulse, one still has to make the decision every single day. It’s not just a decision you make and it’s done, it’s one you must always choose to continue to make. A vegan has to decide to continue to be vegan every day, likely while under scrutiny of themself and others.
I’ll grant you I said video, singular. I would have been more correct saying videos because that’s what the person holding the sign in the picture thinks is the case.
They are implying pretty clearly they are vegan because they watched vegan propaganda videos.
Again, I’m NOT making the argument that if you watch a vegan propaganda video or videos you’ll become vegan, you’re disagreeing with the person in the picture.
What had the biggest impact on me was videos of pigs and cows being cute and dog like. Nothing else changed my view like a cow hopping around like a happy idiot.
(I’m not vegan but I eat pescatarian now and feel myself on the way to a bit more)
I’ve seen only a few you listed like cowspiracy and seaspiracy and a majority of those two films were just facts and diagrams and interviews. So I call bullshit. I know this is a bad faith attempt I mean seriously, “impulsive highly emotional person”? Maybe people who care for the environment see the facts and diagrams and convert because it isn’t possible to feed this many people sustainably. It’s not a health disaster to be vegan either, that’s ridiculous of you to say. This won’t shock you because you came here to troll but vegans can go through pregnancy just fine, breast feed just fine too, something that shouldn’t be possible if it was such a health disaster. A lot of our food is already fortified with vitamins so you don’t need meat for b12 or iron, just eat a bowl of cereal with soy milk. I’m in the process of going vegan so not 100% but I’m so tired of seeing trolls come to vegan communities to talk about how much they don’t care about animals or the planet. And how manly and fulfilled it makes them feel to eat bacon. We get it, you’re boring and have nothing new to say.
I have no doubt you wanting to become vegan comes from a genuine place and you’re trying to do the right thing.
I respect your choice and I hope it works for you.
If at some point in the future though you decide you no longer wish to be vegan I’d respect that choice as well and I don’t think it would make you a bad person.
as a little kid i saw the slaughterhouse videos PETA would put into flash games. still eat meat to this day