Yes, cats are not innocent, but let’s keep pretending that humans aren’t affecting biodiversity and just blame the cats. Australians are among the worst offenders on biodiversity problems and climate change, so don’t worry… I get it.
Are you saying, that, because a human curfew would be out of proportion, a cat curfew is out of proportion, too?
Human petship is by extension human activity, so curbing anthropogenic influence on biodiversity loss might include blaming human pets and thus cats, when those pets contribute significantly (2B animals/a) to biodiversity loss.
Domesticated cats live long, are well fed and are great hunters.
I think the first step is to identify the full impact of Glysophates and other similarly used pesticides, particularly their roll up impacts, then we can start working on secondary effects like cats.
If you take away the cats, rats and mice will destroy 10x more than cats ever could. See Vancouver BC or Easter Island.
People can get crazy defensive about this stuff, and the goal posts almost always move.
First, they usually try to say that it’s cruel to keep fluffy inside. (Cats haven’t evolved to safely fit in MOST environments, let’s be real. There’s a whole damned planet out there.)
If you mention environmental concerns, they’ll usually suggest of a bell or collar. (Both can be very deadly to a cat if the collar or bell catches on something. Break-away collars mean absolutely nothing if the clasp istelf catches on something, so they also aren’t a safety guarantee.)
Usually, that bit is also followed by pointing out that everything is contributing to species becoming extinct.
Sometimes, I seriously wonder if some people are just trying to get out of exercising their cat. I really hope not though, because that’s a horrific thought.
The thought of potentially shortening my cats lifespan is heart breaking. I would never willingly do that to a creature who relies on me like that, so I can’t understand this. I’m not sure I ever will.
Yes. But we need to stop smoking, not just chew some gum to mask the problem.
Without handling the pesticide/herbicide part of the equation, you’re not handling the actual problem. You’re treating a symptom.
All of these disorders and problems existed before. Colony collapse disorder existed before. Bats and their white nose fungus have existed for untold millenia. Songbirds had to face housecats for hundreds of years, just in North America.
So why are we seeing a sudden and massive change to all of those things. Cats aren’t suddenly more effective hunters because of climate change. Colony collapse disorder has no logical reason to be affected by climate change as weather has been ruled out as a cause of it.
It’s not like they’re Fire Ants who are migrating northward as winters lessen in severity, or the massive pine beetle epidemic of BC which happened because it stopped getting cold enough to freeze them to death.
For Bats bees, and songbirds, what do they have in common. Bats eats bugs, songbirds eat bugs and seeds. Bugs can be easily found around crops. Seeds are most common around crops. Honeybees pollinate pesticide/herbicide coated crops.
Hell, the biggest and most glaring thing pointing at pest/herb-icides is that barn swallow almost went extinct but tree swallows were fine. Weird how the bug eating, farm dwelling songbird very nearly died off but the forest dwelling cousin is fine.
Look at their exchange with me, they gave up because they realized it was getting ridiculous but just came back to argue with you a second time to try and have one place where they had the last word.
You realise your barn swallow example is the most widespread swallow in the world and has a conservation status of “least concerning”?
Cats killing wild animals isn’t a “symptom”, it’s a “disease”, just like some of the other “diseases” you point out. Right now you’re telling us we shouldn’t try to treat the “disease” that’s the easiest to take care of because there are other “diseases” that are harder to take care of that exist.
They’re not suddenly more effective at killing, we just suddenly realize how much of an issue they are.
House cats are very effective predators that aren’t native to the vast majority of the world and we are the ones who introduced them everywhere and decided to let them roam free. Time to face our responsibilities.
It also lowers their lifespan and makes them catch diseases that they then transmit to humans.
That’s one type of bird that is globally in the “least concerned” category and that lives in an environment where the concentration of cats per km is very low.
Is the barn swallow and the impact of cats in rural locations really the way you want to go about arguing against scientific studies on the impact of cat populations on wildlife in general? That’s the hill you want to die on?
I know it’s hard to admit we’re wrong but you can also just stop replying so you stop digging your hole.
I am suggesting no such thing? What I mean is that humans should start doing other things first, clean up their own shit - first reason that there are so few birds is factory farming - overly aggressive use of pesticides killing off insects, machine harvesting chopping up ground nests, land “purchase” destroying forests and animal trek transit zones. Outdoor cats come only in sight because of the one animal kind that does thrive on this: rodents, especially mice.
Yes, cats are not innocent, but let’s keep pretending that humans aren’t affecting biodiversity and just blame the cats. Australians are among the worst offenders on biodiversity problems and climate change, so don’t worry… I get it.
Maybe we should start by making cat owners keep their bird and rodent killing machines inside
What if the rodents are not indigenous and are more of a pest than the cats?
Cute response, but cats have cause the extinction of dozens of local animal species in countries around the world
Could you list some examples? I’m curious to know more.
https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/
It’s literally not possible to be more of a pest than the cats.
Depends on the place. New Zealand has no native rodents and they are worse
Are you saying, that, because a human curfew would be out of proportion, a cat curfew is out of proportion, too?
Human petship is by extension human activity, so curbing anthropogenic influence on biodiversity loss might include blaming human pets and thus cats, when those pets contribute significantly (2B animals/a) to biodiversity loss.
Domesticated cats live long, are well fed and are great hunters.
I think the first step is to identify the full impact of Glysophates and other similarly used pesticides, particularly their roll up impacts, then we can start working on secondary effects like cats.
If you take away the cats, rats and mice will destroy 10x more than cats ever could. See Vancouver BC or Easter Island.
We can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time.
People can get crazy defensive about this stuff, and the goal posts almost always move.
First, they usually try to say that it’s cruel to keep fluffy inside. (Cats haven’t evolved to safely fit in MOST environments, let’s be real. There’s a whole damned planet out there.)
If you mention environmental concerns, they’ll usually suggest of a bell or collar. (Both can be very deadly to a cat if the collar or bell catches on something. Break-away collars mean absolutely nothing if the clasp istelf catches on something, so they also aren’t a safety guarantee.)
Usually, that bit is also followed by pointing out that everything is contributing to species becoming extinct.
Sometimes, I seriously wonder if some people are just trying to get out of exercising their cat. I really hope not though, because that’s a horrific thought.
The thought of potentially shortening my cats lifespan is heart breaking. I would never willingly do that to a creature who relies on me like that, so I can’t understand this. I’m not sure I ever will.
Yes. But we need to stop smoking, not just chew some gum to mask the problem.
Without handling the pesticide/herbicide part of the equation, you’re not handling the actual problem. You’re treating a symptom.
All of these disorders and problems existed before. Colony collapse disorder existed before. Bats and their white nose fungus have existed for untold millenia. Songbirds had to face housecats for hundreds of years, just in North America.
So why are we seeing a sudden and massive change to all of those things. Cats aren’t suddenly more effective hunters because of climate change. Colony collapse disorder has no logical reason to be affected by climate change as weather has been ruled out as a cause of it.
It’s not like they’re Fire Ants who are migrating northward as winters lessen in severity, or the massive pine beetle epidemic of BC which happened because it stopped getting cold enough to freeze them to death.
For Bats bees, and songbirds, what do they have in common. Bats eats bugs, songbirds eat bugs and seeds. Bugs can be easily found around crops. Seeds are most common around crops. Honeybees pollinate pesticide/herbicide coated crops.
Hell, the biggest and most glaring thing pointing at pest/herb-icides is that barn swallow almost went extinct but tree swallows were fine. Weird how the bug eating, farm dwelling songbird very nearly died off but the forest dwelling cousin is fine.
Barn shallows are one of the most populous birds on the planet. When did they nearly go extinct??
Canada is the only country that has actually tracked their numbers in detail and has a recorded 75% loss in the last 25 years.
Everywhere else is estimating a 30% loss, but they can’t provide studies backing up that limited loss.
Hard to get international numbers, but in Canada they’re listed as “at risk” with a 75% drop in numbers in the last 25 years.
Internationally their numbers are listed as up to 200 million.
Look at their exchange with me, they gave up because they realized it was getting ridiculous but just came back to argue with you a second time to try and have one place where they had the last word.
You realise your barn swallow example is the most widespread swallow in the world and has a conservation status of “least concerning”?
Cats killing wild animals isn’t a “symptom”, it’s a “disease”, just like some of the other “diseases” you point out. Right now you’re telling us we shouldn’t try to treat the “disease” that’s the easiest to take care of because there are other “diseases” that are harder to take care of that exist.
They’re not suddenly more effective at killing, we just suddenly realize how much of an issue they are.
House cats are very effective predators that aren’t native to the vast majority of the world and we are the ones who introduced them everywhere and decided to let them roam free. Time to face our responsibilities.
It also lowers their lifespan and makes them catch diseases that they then transmit to humans.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380
https://onehealth.uoguelph.ca/2022/02/28/outdoor-cats-a-threat-to-more-than-just-birds/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife
https://naturecanada.ca/discover-nature/endangered-species/barn-swallow/
Nature Canada, lists three suspected main causes for the 75% drop in barn swallow numbers.
Funny how two of the three involve pesticides.
That’s one type of bird that is globally in the “least concerned” category and that lives in an environment where the concentration of cats per km is very low.
Is the barn swallow and the impact of cats in rural locations really the way you want to go about arguing against scientific studies on the impact of cat populations on wildlife in general? That’s the hill you want to die on?
I know it’s hard to admit we’re wrong but you can also just stop replying so you stop digging your hole.
Barn swallows are listed as at risk in Canada due to a 75% drop in numbers in the last 25 years.
Tree Swallows meanwhile are at least concern.
If you’re going to try and admonish me about something, at least try to be remotely right about it please.
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If cats want to be able to get away with killing native wildlife, they’ve just got to start a mining or logging company and they’re all set.
Stop having kids. Beyond that you’re suggesting human genocide.
I am suggesting no such thing? What I mean is that humans should start doing other things first, clean up their own shit - first reason that there are so few birds is factory farming - overly aggressive use of pesticides killing off insects, machine harvesting chopping up ground nests, land “purchase” destroying forests and animal trek transit zones. Outdoor cats come only in sight because of the one animal kind that does thrive on this: rodents, especially mice.
Owning domestic cats is a human thing