Wayland is very much a work in progress whether that be on KDE Plasma or any other system but Compositor Handoffs are an incredible concept that will revolut...
That doesn’t make it produced by Xorg and licensed by Xorg to be X12. The network transparency being ignored is an issue. Vnc is not a 1 to 1 replacement for being able to remotely display individual apps and windows. As I said, there is no X12 and this backs me up on that. Gaming is not a use case for businesses, except gaming studios, any focus on gaming before it is a full replacement for X11 is a waste. Gaming should be a tacked on as an afterthought. This is a POSIX like system, for work. Dropping network transparency in favor of games being first will slow corporate adoption.
To be honest I’ve been disappointed by x11 over the network. It was very cool when I first learned of it, but just hasn’t kept up with the heavier GUIs IMHO. There is waypipe if you want the same features x11 networking did. I am personally excited to see where remote application viewing can really go as we move off of X. An example of what some are working on with KDE plasma 6 Wayland for remote desktop/app: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aPx5tEruG_k
I’ve addressed the existence of waypipe before. It’s an add-on, an afterthought… not a native part of wayland. Does it work? Seems to. Is it addressing a shortcoming in wayland? Yes. Does that mean the shortcoming is gone in wayland? No.
You plan on fixing them all yourself? I’ve explained this in other threads enough, it’s not getting fixed, so unless you’re the magic dev that can turn wayland into a real X12, I’m not going through wasting my time again. Long story short, it’s not a proper replacement for X11.
It’s just I’ve seen your sentiment before from others but have never read anything substantive on just general grumbling where the networking for graphics moved on the stack
Familiar with waypipe, it is not an internal piece of Wayland. I know you attempt to address that in your video, but it’s missing one argument. Backwards compatibility. Waypipe, and more importantly, Wayland, is not designed for backwards compatibility of network transparency. An X11 terminal is not going to be able to display Wayland or Waypipe remote applications. That is a huge gap. As for 2 processes versus 1 (waypipe not being part of wayland), that might not matter to you, but it means wayland is, and if this continues, will always be incomplete in comparison to X11. This not to say Wayland isn’t working for many workflows. Wayland does work for those prefer it, it just leaves various use cases out in the cold. Does it work? For a lot of things, yes. Does it do it right? No. Pedantic view? Certainly, but with reasons. Is the new feature cool? Yes. Should X11 be able to do all of this and become X12, absolutely. Does the fact that it hasn’t happen bother many of us? Yes. Are we a majority? Doesn’t seem so. Will we continue to be noisy about it? Likely. Will anyone care? Likely not. Will it annoy folks? Probably. Will we care? Not really. We didn’t get what we want, so we aren’t happy. Will we eventually have to move over to Wayland? Unfortunately. Might it be better? Possibly. Will we like if it’s better? Certainly not, it wasn’t done correctly, and that matters to some of us. Do I want more videos trying to convince me to like Wayland sent to me in response, despite it not being the X12 we wanted? Not really. Long story short, it does what it does, and even if great, it didn’t do it in the way we wanted and we want to complain about it forever. Toss it in with systemd, same mindset. It does a job well, but not how we wanted it, and not living within the scopes we think it should. I use it every day, but will always hate it for that. Thanks for your primary topic video, it was cool. I just lament that it leaves X11 devices further behind for a technology that while neat, was built ideologically incorrectly and to the wrong audience. Now anyone and everyone trying to convert us into liking Wayland, despite it being cool, forget it. Won’t happen. Fundamentally it was made wrong. Does cool stuff, but didn’t go about it the way an X server implementation could be backward compatible with, hence it’s simply wrong. X11 can remotely display to it, but not the other way around. The fact that there are bunch, likely even a majority, that don’t seem to care about that is maddening, and that they so proudly don’t give a darn about it, makes us hate Wayland even more. Will it matter? Probably not. Do I hope it matters, and some X12 perfection comes about and smites all the Wayland lovers? Probably yes. Because they are wrong, wrong on the internet, and like the XKCD, we have to obsess over those we see as wrong on the internet. :)
X forwarding should work under XWayland.
There’s also interesting (in development) projects such as Arcan one may want to check out.
Wayland may not be the 1:1 “X12” implementation you hoped for, unfortunately that was never going to happen to begin with.
The amount of effort required to continue developing Xorg is simply too great.
There’s countless people who talk about wanting to support it & contrabute but nobody actually wants to drive it forward.
I understand your disappointment.
There’s countless people who talk about wanting to support it & contrabute but nobody actually wants to drive it forward. I understand your disappointment.
It needs a company and money behind it to make it happen. I expect as X11 gets further behind, if Wayland ends up not meeting the needs of enough corporate interests, something (probably not X12) will get made to address it.
Arcan looks interesting. It is a lot to ingest and think about.
X11 is a mess and unmaintained, it’s a huge ask. Assuming it’s even possible on X11.
Besides, Wayland is literally X12.
X11 didn’t have to be abandoned, that’s my point. And nothing is “X12”, as Wayland doesn’t do a lot of what X11 did. Calling it “X12” is propaganda.
https://youtu.be/L4wBDkKI5YQ?si=g6IlSw3cCP1IOm1w
That doesn’t make it produced by Xorg and licensed by Xorg to be X12. The network transparency being ignored is an issue. Vnc is not a 1 to 1 replacement for being able to remotely display individual apps and windows. As I said, there is no X12 and this backs me up on that. Gaming is not a use case for businesses, except gaming studios, any focus on gaming before it is a full replacement for X11 is a waste. Gaming should be a tacked on as an afterthought. This is a POSIX like system, for work. Dropping network transparency in favor of games being first will slow corporate adoption.
To be honest I’ve been disappointed by x11 over the network. It was very cool when I first learned of it, but just hasn’t kept up with the heavier GUIs IMHO. There is waypipe if you want the same features x11 networking did. I am personally excited to see where remote application viewing can really go as we move off of X. An example of what some are working on with KDE plasma 6 Wayland for remote desktop/app: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aPx5tEruG_k
I’ve addressed the existence of waypipe before. It’s an add-on, an afterthought… not a native part of wayland. Does it work? Seems to. Is it addressing a shortcoming in wayland? Yes. Does that mean the shortcoming is gone in wayland? No.
I don’t understand the issue still. What feature are you missing or what issues do you face under this model?
You plan on fixing them all yourself? I’ve explained this in other threads enough, it’s not getting fixed, so unless you’re the magic dev that can turn wayland into a real X12, I’m not going through wasting my time again. Long story short, it’s not a proper replacement for X11.
It’s just I’ve seen your sentiment before from others but have never read anything substantive on just general grumbling where the networking for graphics moved on the stack
https://youtu.be/1QwFnLUa5TU?si=hQpcsp0Ic7T03iVp
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe/
https://mstoeckl.com/notes/gsoc/blog.html
Familiar with waypipe, it is not an internal piece of Wayland. I know you attempt to address that in your video, but it’s missing one argument. Backwards compatibility. Waypipe, and more importantly, Wayland, is not designed for backwards compatibility of network transparency. An X11 terminal is not going to be able to display Wayland or Waypipe remote applications. That is a huge gap. As for 2 processes versus 1 (waypipe not being part of wayland), that might not matter to you, but it means wayland is, and if this continues, will always be incomplete in comparison to X11. This not to say Wayland isn’t working for many workflows. Wayland does work for those prefer it, it just leaves various use cases out in the cold. Does it work? For a lot of things, yes. Does it do it right? No. Pedantic view? Certainly, but with reasons. Is the new feature cool? Yes. Should X11 be able to do all of this and become X12, absolutely. Does the fact that it hasn’t happen bother many of us? Yes. Are we a majority? Doesn’t seem so. Will we continue to be noisy about it? Likely. Will anyone care? Likely not. Will it annoy folks? Probably. Will we care? Not really. We didn’t get what we want, so we aren’t happy. Will we eventually have to move over to Wayland? Unfortunately. Might it be better? Possibly. Will we like if it’s better? Certainly not, it wasn’t done correctly, and that matters to some of us. Do I want more videos trying to convince me to like Wayland sent to me in response, despite it not being the X12 we wanted? Not really. Long story short, it does what it does, and even if great, it didn’t do it in the way we wanted and we want to complain about it forever. Toss it in with systemd, same mindset. It does a job well, but not how we wanted it, and not living within the scopes we think it should. I use it every day, but will always hate it for that. Thanks for your primary topic video, it was cool. I just lament that it leaves X11 devices further behind for a technology that while neat, was built ideologically incorrectly and to the wrong audience. Now anyone and everyone trying to convert us into liking Wayland, despite it being cool, forget it. Won’t happen. Fundamentally it was made wrong. Does cool stuff, but didn’t go about it the way an X server implementation could be backward compatible with, hence it’s simply wrong. X11 can remotely display to it, but not the other way around. The fact that there are bunch, likely even a majority, that don’t seem to care about that is maddening, and that they so proudly don’t give a darn about it, makes us hate Wayland even more. Will it matter? Probably not. Do I hope it matters, and some X12 perfection comes about and smites all the Wayland lovers? Probably yes. Because they are wrong, wrong on the internet, and like the XKCD, we have to obsess over those we see as wrong on the internet. :)
X forwarding should work under XWayland.
There’s also interesting (in development) projects such as Arcan one may want to check out.
Wayland may not be the 1:1 “X12” implementation you hoped for, unfortunately that was never going to happen to begin with. The amount of effort required to continue developing Xorg is simply too great.
There’s countless people who talk about wanting to support it & contrabute but nobody actually wants to drive it forward. I understand your disappointment.
It needs a company and money behind it to make it happen. I expect as X11 gets further behind, if Wayland ends up not meeting the needs of enough corporate interests, something (probably not X12) will get made to address it.
Arcan looks interesting. It is a lot to ingest and think about.
deleted by creator
You are confused.