I started the video thinking “huh, that’s neat I guess” and then I was more and more impressed as the video went on. This would be pretty revolutionary in how it could change your workflow. It’s the kind of feature that would get me to switch from Gnome to KDE if it was only supported fully in the latter.
Very similar experience. He did a good job of building to the “Ok but why does this matter” aspect of it all
It’s not just about crashes. You can switch compositor without logging out or save save the full state of an app to disk to ‘sleep’ the app if you are short of memory. I’m sure people will think of other possibilities too.
I’m a big fan of high availability software rollouts. It would be interesting to see this do a live update where you spin up the new compositor, run some test on it, if it passes hand off, if that succeds kill the old one. Minimal disruption for the end user.
Kind of neat for desktop users, but for kiosks or other always running GUIs its super cool to me
Valve should get on this for gamescope, imagine Steam Deck doing a system update without closing your game.
The Steam Deck is immutable aka image based and I am not sure if Steam isn’t part of that image too or what effects that would have but it definitely would be a cool feature!
For SteamOS this would manifest as seamless transitions between gamescope and desktop mode, which atm needs you to log out of one session to log into the other.
@merthyr1831
Honestly this would be a game changer for me, and I already love my SteamDeck
@gamma
Exactly a great use case!
Non-YouTube link: https://piped.video/watch?v=jlDhpFjBWiw
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Gnome is pretty stable for me, unless extensions are involved, because then it’s unusably buggy.
The problem is that Gnome vanilla is too vanilla, even compared to MacOS. Extensions are an absolute must for Gnome to be a functional DE. But as you said, once extensions are involved, it becomes buggy.
It is almost impossible to have an usable gnome without extensions, at least for most of us.
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Fair enough.
I’ve been maining Wayland ever since the big push for fixes in kwin-wayland (what is that, like 6 or 8 months ago now?)
It’s been a little bumpy but no major complaints, and very solid otherwise. I can still play VR games, even!
It’s a nice feature in theory. In practice, the sort of crash this guards against happens to me no more than once a year. Often more rarely. And I’m including all my machines in this anecdata - my personal desktop, laptop, corporate workstation, with Intel and NVIDIA GPUs in the mix. 😄
I believe it’s possible to turn this into a very robust hibernation feature.
In the video he provides additional use cases outside of crashes. If I’m understanding it correctly, one is the ability to seamlessly transition across and/or run multiple DE’s in real-time, and the second is reimagining app loading by being able to restore apps from the disk as if they never left RAM. Someone please correct me if I misinterpreted this
In addition this feature makes debugging and developing KWin much easier because you can just restart the compositor without interrupting your workflow.
Well, that’s probably because you’re running XOrg.
Badum-bum-tish I’ll be here all night.
Hahaha. You know what, I thought that’d be the case but I’ve been on Wayland on my Framework since Ubuntu 20.04 LTS and I’m baffled at the stability of the stack. I thought it’d be a shit show, and it wasn’t. I guess a decade of development didn’t go in vain. 😄
This doesn’t seem so insignificant anymore.
This would be an incredible QoL improvement for gaming, at least until all compositors reach feature parity. Imagine using your preferred compositor for everyday tasks, quick-switching to another one that supports VRR and/or HDR while gaming, and then back again, all without logging out and logging in again.
With all the Linux on mobile work, one thing I was wondering about is how Android (and iOS too, I think) can just stop apps running in the background if it thinks they won’t be opened any time soon, to save energy, and how apps must therefore be programmed to be able to handle that gracefully. There has been a lot of focus on making apps adapt to the screen size, but not so much on making them save energy like that - I wonder if this work could enable that in one go for whole classes of apps?
There was also a talk at GUADEC that discussed this exact feature but even more fleshed out, I believe for GNOME. It was reminiscent of iOS or Android’s sleep and resume capabilities for apps.
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X11 is a mess and unmaintained, it’s a huge ask. Assuming it’s even possible on X11.
Besides, Wayland is literally X12.X11 didn’t have to be abandoned, that’s my point. And nothing is “X12”, as Wayland doesn’t do a lot of what X11 did. Calling it “X12” is propaganda.
That doesn’t make it produced by Xorg and licensed by Xorg to be X12. The network transparency being ignored is an issue. Vnc is not a 1 to 1 replacement for being able to remotely display individual apps and windows. As I said, there is no X12 and this backs me up on that. Gaming is not a use case for businesses, except gaming studios, any focus on gaming before it is a full replacement for X11 is a waste. Gaming should be a tacked on as an afterthought. This is a POSIX like system, for work. Dropping network transparency in favor of games being first will slow corporate adoption.
Familiar with waypipe, it is not an internal piece of Wayland. I know you attempt to address that in your video, but it’s missing one argument. Backwards compatibility. Waypipe, and more importantly, Wayland, is not designed for backwards compatibility of network transparency. An X11 terminal is not going to be able to display Wayland or Waypipe remote applications. That is a huge gap. As for 2 processes versus 1 (waypipe not being part of wayland), that might not matter to you, but it means wayland is, and if this continues, will always be incomplete in comparison to X11. This not to say Wayland isn’t working for many workflows. Wayland does work for those prefer it, it just leaves various use cases out in the cold. Does it work? For a lot of things, yes. Does it do it right? No. Pedantic view? Certainly, but with reasons. Is the new feature cool? Yes. Should X11 be able to do all of this and become X12, absolutely. Does the fact that it hasn’t happen bother many of us? Yes. Are we a majority? Doesn’t seem so. Will we continue to be noisy about it? Likely. Will anyone care? Likely not. Will it annoy folks? Probably. Will we care? Not really. We didn’t get what we want, so we aren’t happy. Will we eventually have to move over to Wayland? Unfortunately. Might it be better? Possibly. Will we like if it’s better? Certainly not, it wasn’t done correctly, and that matters to some of us. Do I want more videos trying to convince me to like Wayland sent to me in response, despite it not being the X12 we wanted? Not really. Long story short, it does what it does, and even if great, it didn’t do it in the way we wanted and we want to complain about it forever. Toss it in with systemd, same mindset. It does a job well, but not how we wanted it, and not living within the scopes we think it should. I use it every day, but will always hate it for that. Thanks for your primary topic video, it was cool. I just lament that it leaves X11 devices further behind for a technology that while neat, was built ideologically incorrectly and to the wrong audience. Now anyone and everyone trying to convert us into liking Wayland, despite it being cool, forget it. Won’t happen. Fundamentally it was made wrong. Does cool stuff, but didn’t go about it the way an X server implementation could be backward compatible with, hence it’s simply wrong. X11 can remotely display to it, but not the other way around. The fact that there are bunch, likely even a majority, that don’t seem to care about that is maddening, and that they so proudly don’t give a darn about it, makes us hate Wayland even more. Will it matter? Probably not. Do I hope it matters, and some X12 perfection comes about and smites all the Wayland lovers? Probably yes. Because they are wrong, wrong on the internet, and like the XKCD, we have to obsess over those we see as wrong on the internet. :)
X forwarding should work under XWayland.
There’s also interesting (in development) projects such as Arcan one may want to check out.Wayland may not be the 1:1 “X12” implementation you hoped for, unfortunately that was never going to happen to begin with. The amount of effort required to continue developing Xorg is simply too great.
There’s countless people who talk about wanting to support it & contrabute but nobody actually wants to drive it forward. I understand your disappointment.
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You are confused.
To be honest I’ve been disappointed by x11 over the network. It was very cool when I first learned of it, but just hasn’t kept up with the heavier GUIs IMHO. There is waypipe if you want the same features x11 networking did. I am personally excited to see where remote application viewing can really go as we move off of X. An example of what some are working on with KDE plasma 6 Wayland for remote desktop/app: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aPx5tEruG_k
I’ve addressed the existence of waypipe before. It’s an add-on, an afterthought… not a native part of wayland. Does it work? Seems to. Is it addressing a shortcoming in wayland? Yes. Does that mean the shortcoming is gone in wayland? No.
I don’t understand the issue still. What feature are you missing or what issues do you face under this model?
@[email protected] See that? Someone else dissing on “the fiasco” known as KDE 4 within the first 30 seconds of their excited statement about the upcoming KDE Plasma 6. You want to rush over there and call them rude? Want to rush over there and proactively ban them from your joke of a KDE lemmy channel and instance that cannot tolerate feedback? You stood up for KDE 4, “Bro”… you’re on the wrong side of history. Now, go do your wounded pride thing and tell him to go code it for himself. Go on. It’s your one move.
I don’t have any idea what you’re on about and I want to call you rude.
Because he deleted it. It was a comment about KDE 4 being a huge step backward, 5 being great, and being worried about 6 because of announcements of features being removed. He went overboard and abused his moderator access in an act of retaliation for something that was never really about him, which now makes it about him.
are you making stupid faces in your video thumbnails? couldn’t care less what you have to say, not clicking ever, plenty info elsewhere.
How many inches deep does that stick have to be for you to be this pointlessly butt hurt? 🤔
@Rustmilian @dingdongitsabear the most epic response aside haha folks that say your content is shit won’t watch are just wasting too much of their time on this earth being mad.
Really glad to see all this really nice work in the quality of life stuff happening in Wayland.
You’re mean.
I mean it’s good rule of thumb, but if someone I trust specifically recommends a video it’s silly to still push the rule of thumb
