Yeah again we don’t really disagree very much. I think you’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. I definitely don’t think I did this:
Yeah, and my point was that you’re just shifting it from this one (mental health) to that one (the state of the world).
As I said before, I don’t want to shift to any one new way, but rather to critique everything being always understood in the context of “mental health,” as per this article. The framing of this article is ridiculous, but also completely normal. I was just proposing that as a counterpoint to the prevailing narrative, not as a replacement. I think I already explained that in the follow-ups.
The good news is that your basic point is largely being acknowledged by the mental health community.
I unfortunately have extensive personal experience with the mental health community, and this has not been my experience at all, but I live in that land of Xanax, the USA, and our mental health community fucking sucks. Our psychiatric hospitals are barbaric. It is still perfectly normal to throw a psych patient into a room with nothing but a bed, a fluorescent light, and a camera, not provide them with food and water, lock the door from the outside, and leave them there for hours.
the fact that issues do not live in isolation in someone’s brain as some kind of hormonal imbalance that can be fixed with some pills.
This is awesome. The “chemical imbalance” theory of mental illness is scientifically debunked, but here in the US, it’s absolutely still taught in school and told to patients. It’s what my doctors have told me. If you tell people they have a chemical imbalance in their brain, that tells them that they have an innate medical problem, and that it must be overcome with medication. It’s almost like the drug companies come up with the theory 🙃.
Are you familiar with the book “Mad in America?” There’s also a sequel, “Anatomy of an Epidemic,” and a website. Maybe to an outsider from the US, this is just what the normal mental health community is like, but to me, discovering their work really helped me understand the barbarity of my own experiences.
Oh yeah, I live in the Netherlands and it is very different here. It seems big pharma is running the show in the US. Although I’ve heard that these kinds of things happen in the Netherlands to some extent as well, the scale of it is not comparable. We don’t have ads for medicine and doctors don’t reap rewards for writing certain kinds of prescriptions. These kinds of things just seem like insanity to me.
Omg lol those commercials are perfect. You’re making fun of them, but have you considered that that approach to healthcare maximizes GDP 🫠. Big pharma, big companies in general, really does run the show here. Send help, please.
I’d say it’s getting worse here, and more worryingly, it’s getting worse faster. My doctor friends are very clear about this: Our healthcare system has already collapsed, but you only know about it if you’re in it in some way.
Every year, my health insurance goes up in cost some ridiculous amount. This year, my partner and I had to spend some 4000 USD for our annual premium (that is in addition to what her employer is already paying for “employer provided” healthcare [itself a scam]), plus our deductible, or the total amount we have to spend before our insurance covers virtually anything, is 8000 USD. After that, there’s “co-insurance,” which I’m pretty sure didn’t exist 10 years ago and is a concept I don’t fully understand, but it’s some cost sharing arrangement with insurance companies before you finally hit your “max out of pocket.” I don’t even know what my max out of pocket is anymore.
The billing is similarly insane. Every time I interact with any healthcare system, I don’t just receive a single bill, but instead I receive a stream of confusing letters, each with differing amounts, and they trickle in for months and months.
I and many of my friends no longer pay our medical bills. I really just ignore them. When a healthcare debt collector call, I inform them that they are the most vile bottom-feeders and absolute scum of the earth, and that my payment plan is the revolution. So far, that hasn’t been a problem for me, which is only because I live in Vermont, and we do have some laws regulating healthcare debt, plus all our hospitals are not-for-profits. In much of the US, most hospitals are for-profit, and not paying your bills means you end up in a bad legal situation really quickly.
To add to all that, somehow, hospitals are perpetually low on funds, and wait times to see a new doctor are easily a year.
The situation is plainly unsustainable. We tolerate it because we are a stupid, pathetic, illiterate, and completely dominated population, terrified of each other and of change, but also too afraid to admit to ourselves that our pride at being the world’s most special country is a lie, because it’s the only thing we have left as the rest collapses around us.
Oh my god, I knew it was bad, but this sounds god aweful. Why is the US so broken in so many ways? Is it all to due with the 2 party political system? That would be my best guess for a root cause.
I’m not sure. I think the two party system is itself a symptom of a citizenry with very little political education, because ultimately we could exert power collectively if we had the consciousness to do so. There’s a small but very active leftist population in the US, but for whatever reason, we struggle to organize and break into mainstream.
The average American thinks Karl Marx is almost literally a demon from hell, socialism is when free stuff, communism is when government owns everything, and anarchism is when bombs.
Our state legislators, at least here in Vermont, and I’ve interacted with many of these, are generally landlords, and they themselves have little background or even interest in political theory. Our news rarely even covers other countries. As a result, we don’t even have the vocabulary for how things could be different.
I’m actually a dual citizen. I’m currently in Spain visiting my family, and it’s just shocking to me how much better things are here. I come about once a year, and by comparison, the US is just uncivilized. I don’t know how else to put it. It’s a huge comfort to me that I have a place with family and whee I speak the language to escape if/when things finally end in the increasingly inevitable violence that is coming.
I’d venture to say the political system is what made the citizenry. Genetically people in the US aren’t so different. My guess is that somehow your political system got fucked and that fucked the rest. I’d be interesting to know how it got to that point.
In terms of socialism, yeah I know people over there are totally brainwashed to vote against their own interest. It was just amazing to see how much people rallied against Obama when he tried to introduce some type of universal health care. “Health care for everyone? How dare you!!”. Lordy lord. People are so dumb. Not just americans though, it depends so much on the system.
Here in the Netherlands we have a surplus of PhDs. Not that we are genetically superior. We just have affordable universities and a culture that stimulates learning.
I genuinely don’t know. I used to think it all goes back to the cold war, but I don’t know anymore. I’m in my mid thirties, and the only hope I have is that the generation after us seems more radicalized by climate changes, school shootings, and so on. They’re our only hope. In my activist circles, I’m starting to meet 22 and 23 year olds, and they’re so young and already so active and politically educated. I really truly hope that’s a trend and not just a fluke.
Here are some factors that have contributed to the increasing polarization:
Historical Context: From its inception, the U.S. had deep political divisions. The Federalists and Anti-Federalists were sharply divided over the creation of a strong central government in the late 18th century. Over time, issues like slavery, states’ rights, and industrialization caused significant rifts.
Two-Party System: The U.S. predominantly has a two-party system. This tends to create a binary choice for voters, which can exacerbate polarization. Over time, as parties realign and consolidate around specific issues or identities, divisions can become more pronounced.
Media Landscape Evolution: The rise of cable news in the 1980s and 1990s, and later the internet and social media, has played a role in deepening polarization. News outlets and platforms can cater to specific ideological niches, leading to echo chambers where viewers are only exposed to information that reinforces their preexisting beliefs.
Gerrymandering: The practice of redrawing electoral districts to favor one party over another can create “safe” districts where politicians are more worried about primary challenges from their own party’s extremes than about general election threats from the opposing party. This can push politicians further to the left or right.
Campaign Finance: The way campaigns are financed, especially after decisions like the Supreme Court’s Citizens United ruling, allows for significant amounts of money to be poured into politics. This can give disproportionate influence to certain groups or individuals, potentially exacerbating polarization.
Cultural and Social Shifts: Factors such as urbanization, education, and changes in religious affiliation can contribute to political polarization. As these shifts occur, they can create a sense of cultural war or identity politics, further dividing groups along political lines.
Political Leadership: Leaders can either bridge divides or deepen them. At various times, American leaders have taken adversarial stances that have contributed to the climate of polarization.
Economic Inequalities: Growing economic disparities can exacerbate feelings of disenfranchisement and lead to increased polarization. People may feel that the “other side” doesn’t represent their interests, leading to a lack of trust in opposing parties or politicians.
Geographic Polarization: There’s an increasing trend of people living in areas that are politically homogenous. Urban areas tend to lean Democratic, while many rural areas lean Republican. This geographical sorting reinforces political beliefs and reduces exposure to opposing views.
Feedback Loop: As polarization increases, trust in the opposing party decreases, leading to a feedback loop where compromise becomes increasingly difficult.
While polarization in politics is not unique to the U.S., the combination of the aforementioned factors has made it particularly pronounced in recent decades. However, history also shows that the country has faced deep divisions before and has found ways to address or move past them. The challenge is understanding the underlying causes and working towards remedies that can foster dialogue and compromise.
Then I asked if capitalism, may have something to do with it also.
Yes, capitalism and its dynamics can certainly play a role in political polarization. Here’s how:
Economic Inequality: One of the criticisms often levied against capitalism, especially in its less-regulated forms, is that it can lead to significant economic inequality. As wealth accumulates among the top echelons of society, those left behind can feel economically and politically disenfranchised. This can lead to resentment and division, with political factions forming around pro-business interests and worker or populist interests.
Consumer Culture and Identity: Capitalism’s emphasis on consumerism can influence how people see themselves and others. As products and brands become intertwined with identity, political beliefs can also become commodities to be marketed and sold. This can further entrench people into particular ideological camps.
Media Commercialization: In a capitalist system, media outlets are often profit-driven. This can lead to sensationalism or the creation of echo chambers, where outlets cater to specific political or ideological demographics to maintain and grow their audience.
Corporate Influence in Politics: With capitalism, especially in systems where campaign finance regulations are lax, corporations and wealthy individuals can exert significant influence on political processes. This can lead to perceptions (or realities) that politicians cater to corporate interests over those of the average citizen, fueling distrust and polarization.
Globalization and Job Displacement: Capitalism’s search for efficiency and profit can lead to phenomena like outsourcing. This can result in job losses in certain sectors or regions, leading to economic anxiety. Politically, this can manifest in protectionism, anti-immigration sentiments, and a polarization between those who see globalization as an opportunity versus those who see it as a threat.
Differing Economic Philosophies: Capitalism, as an economic system, isn’t monolithic. There are varying degrees and types of capitalism (e.g., laissez-faire capitalism vs. welfare capitalism). These differences can lead to political divisions, with some advocating for more government intervention in the market and others pushing for less.
Financial Crises: Episodes like the 2008 financial crisis can exacerbate political divides. In the aftermath of such events, there are often debates about the role of regulation, corporate greed, and government bailouts, which can further polarize public opinion.
So my take is that the binary choice in politics created a major issue straight from the start. Life is too complicated to put in just two categories, but in the US you seem to manage it. And these political boundaries are very much geograhpy based too, which makes of makes it easy to cater to the polarization, which made it easy to maintain. Then you add to that a culture that favors capitalism and now you’ve got the beginnings of a dumpster fire. Voters can be treated as consumers and consumers as voters. Perhaps the age of mass media is where it really started to go wrong. Essentially you end up with news channels such as Fox news which send out a lot of propaganda for the republic party. Once you’ve got a good proportion of your population in a brainwashed state you’re in a pretty bad spot.
Yeah again we don’t really disagree very much. I think you’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. I definitely don’t think I did this:
As I said before, I don’t want to shift to any one new way, but rather to critique everything being always understood in the context of “mental health,” as per this article. The framing of this article is ridiculous, but also completely normal. I was just proposing that as a counterpoint to the prevailing narrative, not as a replacement. I think I already explained that in the follow-ups.
I unfortunately have extensive personal experience with the mental health community, and this has not been my experience at all, but I live in that land of Xanax, the USA, and our mental health community fucking sucks. Our psychiatric hospitals are barbaric. It is still perfectly normal to throw a psych patient into a room with nothing but a bed, a fluorescent light, and a camera, not provide them with food and water, lock the door from the outside, and leave them there for hours.
This is awesome. The “chemical imbalance” theory of mental illness is scientifically debunked, but here in the US, it’s absolutely still taught in school and told to patients. It’s what my doctors have told me. If you tell people they have a chemical imbalance in their brain, that tells them that they have an innate medical problem, and that it must be overcome with medication. It’s almost like the drug companies come up with the theory 🙃.
Are you familiar with the book “Mad in America?” There’s also a sequel, “Anatomy of an Epidemic,” and a website. Maybe to an outsider from the US, this is just what the normal mental health community is like, but to me, discovering their work really helped me understand the barbarity of my own experiences.
Oh yeah, I live in the Netherlands and it is very different here. It seems big pharma is running the show in the US. Although I’ve heard that these kinds of things happen in the Netherlands to some extent as well, the scale of it is not comparable. We don’t have ads for medicine and doctors don’t reap rewards for writing certain kinds of prescriptions. These kinds of things just seem like insanity to me.
Have you seen this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_jX2KT7AMY ? :)
Would you say that the situation is getting worse, staying the same or (if ever so slightly) getting better in the US?
I am not familiar with that book. Sounds interesting.
Omg lol those commercials are perfect. You’re making fun of them, but have you considered that that approach to healthcare maximizes GDP 🫠. Big pharma, big companies in general, really does run the show here. Send help, please.
I’d say it’s getting worse here, and more worryingly, it’s getting worse faster. My doctor friends are very clear about this: Our healthcare system has already collapsed, but you only know about it if you’re in it in some way.
Every year, my health insurance goes up in cost some ridiculous amount. This year, my partner and I had to spend some 4000 USD for our annual premium (that is in addition to what her employer is already paying for “employer provided” healthcare [itself a scam]), plus our deductible, or the total amount we have to spend before our insurance covers virtually anything, is 8000 USD. After that, there’s “co-insurance,” which I’m pretty sure didn’t exist 10 years ago and is a concept I don’t fully understand, but it’s some cost sharing arrangement with insurance companies before you finally hit your “max out of pocket.” I don’t even know what my max out of pocket is anymore.
The billing is similarly insane. Every time I interact with any healthcare system, I don’t just receive a single bill, but instead I receive a stream of confusing letters, each with differing amounts, and they trickle in for months and months.
I and many of my friends no longer pay our medical bills. I really just ignore them. When a healthcare debt collector call, I inform them that they are the most vile bottom-feeders and absolute scum of the earth, and that my payment plan is the revolution. So far, that hasn’t been a problem for me, which is only because I live in Vermont, and we do have some laws regulating healthcare debt, plus all our hospitals are not-for-profits. In much of the US, most hospitals are for-profit, and not paying your bills means you end up in a bad legal situation really quickly.
To add to all that, somehow, hospitals are perpetually low on funds, and wait times to see a new doctor are easily a year.
The situation is plainly unsustainable. We tolerate it because we are a stupid, pathetic, illiterate, and completely dominated population, terrified of each other and of change, but also too afraid to admit to ourselves that our pride at being the world’s most special country is a lie, because it’s the only thing we have left as the rest collapses around us.
Oh my god, I knew it was bad, but this sounds god aweful. Why is the US so broken in so many ways? Is it all to due with the 2 party political system? That would be my best guess for a root cause.
I’m not sure. I think the two party system is itself a symptom of a citizenry with very little political education, because ultimately we could exert power collectively if we had the consciousness to do so. There’s a small but very active leftist population in the US, but for whatever reason, we struggle to organize and break into mainstream.
The average American thinks Karl Marx is almost literally a demon from hell, socialism is when free stuff, communism is when government owns everything, and anarchism is when bombs.
Our state legislators, at least here in Vermont, and I’ve interacted with many of these, are generally landlords, and they themselves have little background or even interest in political theory. Our news rarely even covers other countries. As a result, we don’t even have the vocabulary for how things could be different.
I’m actually a dual citizen. I’m currently in Spain visiting my family, and it’s just shocking to me how much better things are here. I come about once a year, and by comparison, the US is just uncivilized. I don’t know how else to put it. It’s a huge comfort to me that I have a place with family and whee I speak the language to escape if/when things finally end in the increasingly inevitable violence that is coming.
I’d venture to say the political system is what made the citizenry. Genetically people in the US aren’t so different. My guess is that somehow your political system got fucked and that fucked the rest. I’d be interesting to know how it got to that point.
In terms of socialism, yeah I know people over there are totally brainwashed to vote against their own interest. It was just amazing to see how much people rallied against Obama when he tried to introduce some type of universal health care. “Health care for everyone? How dare you!!”. Lordy lord. People are so dumb. Not just americans though, it depends so much on the system.
Here in the Netherlands we have a surplus of PhDs. Not that we are genetically superior. We just have affordable universities and a culture that stimulates learning.
I genuinely don’t know. I used to think it all goes back to the cold war, but I don’t know anymore. I’m in my mid thirties, and the only hope I have is that the generation after us seems more radicalized by climate changes, school shootings, and so on. They’re our only hope. In my activist circles, I’m starting to meet 22 and 23 year olds, and they’re so young and already so active and politically educated. I really truly hope that’s a trend and not just a fluke.
ChatGPT4 made some good points:
Here are some factors that have contributed to the increasing polarization:
Historical Context: From its inception, the U.S. had deep political divisions. The Federalists and Anti-Federalists were sharply divided over the creation of a strong central government in the late 18th century. Over time, issues like slavery, states’ rights, and industrialization caused significant rifts.
Two-Party System: The U.S. predominantly has a two-party system. This tends to create a binary choice for voters, which can exacerbate polarization. Over time, as parties realign and consolidate around specific issues or identities, divisions can become more pronounced.
Media Landscape Evolution: The rise of cable news in the 1980s and 1990s, and later the internet and social media, has played a role in deepening polarization. News outlets and platforms can cater to specific ideological niches, leading to echo chambers where viewers are only exposed to information that reinforces their preexisting beliefs.
Gerrymandering: The practice of redrawing electoral districts to favor one party over another can create “safe” districts where politicians are more worried about primary challenges from their own party’s extremes than about general election threats from the opposing party. This can push politicians further to the left or right.
Campaign Finance: The way campaigns are financed, especially after decisions like the Supreme Court’s Citizens United ruling, allows for significant amounts of money to be poured into politics. This can give disproportionate influence to certain groups or individuals, potentially exacerbating polarization.
Cultural and Social Shifts: Factors such as urbanization, education, and changes in religious affiliation can contribute to political polarization. As these shifts occur, they can create a sense of cultural war or identity politics, further dividing groups along political lines.
Political Leadership: Leaders can either bridge divides or deepen them. At various times, American leaders have taken adversarial stances that have contributed to the climate of polarization.
Economic Inequalities: Growing economic disparities can exacerbate feelings of disenfranchisement and lead to increased polarization. People may feel that the “other side” doesn’t represent their interests, leading to a lack of trust in opposing parties or politicians.
Geographic Polarization: There’s an increasing trend of people living in areas that are politically homogenous. Urban areas tend to lean Democratic, while many rural areas lean Republican. This geographical sorting reinforces political beliefs and reduces exposure to opposing views.
Feedback Loop: As polarization increases, trust in the opposing party decreases, leading to a feedback loop where compromise becomes increasingly difficult.
While polarization in politics is not unique to the U.S., the combination of the aforementioned factors has made it particularly pronounced in recent decades. However, history also shows that the country has faced deep divisions before and has found ways to address or move past them. The challenge is understanding the underlying causes and working towards remedies that can foster dialogue and compromise.
Then I asked if capitalism, may have something to do with it also.
Yes, capitalism and its dynamics can certainly play a role in political polarization. Here’s how:
Economic Inequality: One of the criticisms often levied against capitalism, especially in its less-regulated forms, is that it can lead to significant economic inequality. As wealth accumulates among the top echelons of society, those left behind can feel economically and politically disenfranchised. This can lead to resentment and division, with political factions forming around pro-business interests and worker or populist interests.
Consumer Culture and Identity: Capitalism’s emphasis on consumerism can influence how people see themselves and others. As products and brands become intertwined with identity, political beliefs can also become commodities to be marketed and sold. This can further entrench people into particular ideological camps.
Media Commercialization: In a capitalist system, media outlets are often profit-driven. This can lead to sensationalism or the creation of echo chambers, where outlets cater to specific political or ideological demographics to maintain and grow their audience.
Corporate Influence in Politics: With capitalism, especially in systems where campaign finance regulations are lax, corporations and wealthy individuals can exert significant influence on political processes. This can lead to perceptions (or realities) that politicians cater to corporate interests over those of the average citizen, fueling distrust and polarization.
Globalization and Job Displacement: Capitalism’s search for efficiency and profit can lead to phenomena like outsourcing. This can result in job losses in certain sectors or regions, leading to economic anxiety. Politically, this can manifest in protectionism, anti-immigration sentiments, and a polarization between those who see globalization as an opportunity versus those who see it as a threat.
Differing Economic Philosophies: Capitalism, as an economic system, isn’t monolithic. There are varying degrees and types of capitalism (e.g., laissez-faire capitalism vs. welfare capitalism). These differences can lead to political divisions, with some advocating for more government intervention in the market and others pushing for less.
Financial Crises: Episodes like the 2008 financial crisis can exacerbate political divides. In the aftermath of such events, there are often debates about the role of regulation, corporate greed, and government bailouts, which can further polarize public opinion.
So my take is that the binary choice in politics created a major issue straight from the start. Life is too complicated to put in just two categories, but in the US you seem to manage it. And these political boundaries are very much geograhpy based too, which makes of makes it easy to cater to the polarization, which made it easy to maintain. Then you add to that a culture that favors capitalism and now you’ve got the beginnings of a dumpster fire. Voters can be treated as consumers and consumers as voters. Perhaps the age of mass media is where it really started to go wrong. Essentially you end up with news channels such as Fox news which send out a lot of propaganda for the republic party. Once you’ve got a good proportion of your population in a brainwashed state you’re in a pretty bad spot.