Linux is a usable daily driver if you’re tech savvy enough. Some distros are even kind enough to be daily driveable by non tech savvy, at least for the normal stuff.
At this point, it’s possible, but no normie is ever going to know what distros are easy and won’t be getting through an OS installation anyways.
Pretty sure those users you’re talking about don’t understand desktop controls in general, and would be even worse on Linux. Because when we talk about tech savy we’re not talking about basic controls.
I don’t agree in a broad sense. Windows is much harder to use in some ways, like drivers are a mess compared to Linux (sans Nvidia). It’s harder to maintain over time, less robust, like immutable OSes are much more simple.
There are very few days I use windows and think “wow that was straightforward”. Maybe that’s just me though.
Nah, it’s not you. In their efforts to make Windows more dummy friendly, they’ve SOMEHOW managed to make it worse and keep it that way over several major versions.
We STILL have two different settings schemes in Windows, but don’t worry, they’re still ‘innovating’ with ads in the start menu!
Windows is actively regressing while Linux is only getting better.
Ironically, one of Windows’ biggest ‘innovations’ in years has been adding Linux to it with WSL…
Maybe but if you google (which most users use for their daily driver, even on IOS/Android) you get pointed to the manufacturers who have the driver installers as simple as possible. These also come with auto updaters.
I mean you could not use the tools the manufacturers are providing, but at that point I’d argue you’re trying to be a tech savy user when they offered a way not to.
And very, very, very few edge cases are more difficult than that. most are plug-n-play (which to be fair, Linux has as well)
If you try to google a result for Linux you get a bunch of results for distributions that might not be yours. if you try to google a result for your distro you might get a result from years ago that is strongly not recommended anymore (especially if it leads to that Ubuntutalks website). And then the absolute worst case scenario, where you google and don’t actually find what you’re looking for, because the manufacturer does nothing with Linux and nobody cares about the problem.
A lot of windows was made around things that non-savy users were breaking. Nowadays a lot of the major issues I see people talk about are because they tried to do something that was very clearly something that they didn’t want to be done.
I mean, if you’re biggest argument is, “they might Google the wrong distro”, then I think that really goes to show how few actual concerns there are against Linux.
Anyone who has to install the entire OS will know what distro they’re on. Hell, half of the distros come witha default background with the name on it…
I don’t understand how you consider Windows drivers to be a mess compared to Linux? Do you mean for power users who like to manually configure their own drivers? Windows 10 and 11 are just plug and play with any device I can think of that an average user would use.
I don’t use Windows as my daily driver, but I have done a lot of IT work for people who do use Windows, so maybe I’m missing something.
On Linux a user does nothing. The kernel contains all drivers. The few userspace drivers that exist are there by default like Mesa.
On Windows they are spread out between vendors. Sometimes Windows manages them, sometimes it grabs ancient versions. Then you have to maintain them with updates.
A lot of drivers are spyware, Nvidia’s tool even requires an account.
Yea, I see what you mean. I definitely prefer the way that linux handles drivers.
From my experience, not too many people have had driver issues with the newer versions of windows, but I could have just gotten lucky there. I find that most non tech savy people don’t care if they have the latest driver or if it contains spyware or any of that. Most of them don’t know what a driver is, so they just plug it in and if it works they don’t care how or why.
I try to educate when I can but some people really don’t care to learn. Thanks for your explanation, I totally understand your reasoning.
@AProfessional@TopRamenBinLaden kind of delusional. I worked on a town hall for years and faced all kinds of driver on Linux. From printers to network adapters.
Meh, I have been using linux desktop exclusively for a decade now, and I have to disagree. It… sorta works, but it has definitely many many shortcomings and edge cases where it just shits itself completely — that is, the userspace. The kernel itself is rock solid.
To be fair, my husband is about as far from tech savvy as they come, and he’s been running Linux for years on his laptop. Every 2-3 years I upgrade him. Sometimes just within distros (Ubuntu 12.04 to 16.04 say. Other times, I’ve moved him distros (to fedora) or back to Ubuntu. Otherwise? I don’t touch his system. He’s been happy for years.
I disagree while agreeing. The biggest reason people use windows is simply because its pre-installed. That’s the same reason people use Edge on Windows or Bing as their search engine. They get it preinstalled and don’t know how to change it.
If you install anyone Linux and give them a simple and easy distro preinstalled they’re usually fine with a few words about how to use it, update it and install stuff. Especially if they’re not tech savvy because in this case they wouldn’t know exactly how to use Windows either. I mean look at companies: how many employees use Windows in their daily work but still don’t know how to actually usw windows? They get teached to use their software and tools but not the OS itself and have to figure things out on the OS level if they would want to change something on Windows too.
My observation was that people that are not tech savvy find it easier to understand some beginner friendly Linux distros than Windows.
If on the other hand a person is used to use Windows and knows how to actually use Windows it’s harder for them to switch because things are just different on Linux. For me it’s hard and annoying to use Windows which I have to do at work since February. Before that I used Linux in private my whole life, I used it in school because my school never used Windows as one of the few schools in my country and my last employer also used Linux. And from that perspective I can say that Windows is hard and not intuitive. It’s just being used because it’s being used. I guess you could compare it to Whatsapp vs Signal. From an objective standpoint Signal is better but most people still use WhatsApp because others use it and because it comes preinstalled on some Android phones.
@brayd I can confirm. I have installed Fedora Silverblue to a number of non-techies including my wife, her parents and several of her friends; I walked them through the system for a few minutes and explained basic operation. Most of them have been using it for years, never reported any sort of problem and even expressed being much more satisfied than before.
Is it really really easy to install? Several distros are extremely smooth experiences if you don’t have completely weird hardware to support, but their installation is still an actual OS install procedure. As easy as Windows to install, but almost no one HAS to install their Windows like with Linux.
If steam OS is coming with Wine et. al. already set up (and it’d be silly if it didn’t) that definitely gives it a leg up on most distros for normies, at least.
Normies don’t install any OS, they buy devices with it pre-installed and if they fuck their installation up, they search someone who does it for them.
Which is (almost) impossible for them to do when the OS has it’s root partition as read-only, like the SteamOS
You’d have to check one of the side-distros. SteamOS itself has no official installer yet, only available pre-installed on steamdeck.
There are distros that are organized to recreate it for normal installation though.
Though to be fair, that’s pretty “normie” to not have to experience the installation process at all. Most people will just use what shipped with their PC.
Yea, install availability and upgrades gone wrong are areas Linux needs a bit more progress, though I stand by that Linux is plenty good for daily driving once you’re staring at a GUI you’re comfortable with on the friendlier OS’s
I guess also app availability… Snap packs fucking suck and even normal package repos aren’t the simplest thing to deal with if something is only available in EPEL or some similar situation.
Though is that really unique to Linux? As soon as you do something outside of any normal program, it’s all wizardry to normies.
I’d say Executables (for all their risks) make it pretty easy for less savy users to get apps not immediately made available to them, given there are definite security issues.
But I will be fair that I think Linux’s flatpaks are helping a bit with making apps more available without worrying about the distro. Plus proton/wine lets users grab some of the useful exe’s from windows.
It’s improving I do agree, but it’s something that will hopefully keep improving.
It’s also really difficult to get into if you don’t already have an “in”. Yeah, some distros are pretty easy to use but others aren’t and figuring out which is which is pretty impossible for an outsider.
Hopefully they make some in roads. KDE is what I’d recommend for Windows users for sure. XFCE is great too but it feels a little… raw? compared to KDE. Definitely an upside for efficiency, but I think normies would much more appreciate the full-featured feel of KDE.
Linux is a usable daily driver if you’re tech savvy enough. Some distros are even kind enough to be daily driveable by non tech savvy, at least for the normal stuff.
At this point, it’s possible, but no normie is ever going to know what distros are easy and won’t be getting through an OS installation anyways.
A daily driver shouldn’t need you to be tech savy. There should just be an added benefit for being tech savy.
Windows is not usable if you aren’t tech savvy. See young people who grew up on iOS/Android.
I think Linux is very good already and only improving.
Pretty sure those users you’re talking about don’t understand desktop controls in general, and would be even worse on Linux. Because when we talk about tech savy we’re not talking about basic controls.
I don’t agree in a broad sense. Windows is much harder to use in some ways, like drivers are a mess compared to Linux (sans Nvidia). It’s harder to maintain over time, less robust, like immutable OSes are much more simple.
There are very few days I use windows and think “wow that was straightforward”. Maybe that’s just me though.
Nah, it’s not you. In their efforts to make Windows more dummy friendly, they’ve SOMEHOW managed to make it worse and keep it that way over several major versions.
We STILL have two different settings schemes in Windows, but don’t worry, they’re still ‘innovating’ with ads in the start menu!
Windows is actively regressing while Linux is only getting better.
Ironically, one of Windows’ biggest ‘innovations’ in years has been adding Linux to it with WSL…
Maybe but if you google (which most users use for their daily driver, even on IOS/Android) you get pointed to the manufacturers who have the driver installers as simple as possible. These also come with auto updaters.
I mean you could not use the tools the manufacturers are providing, but at that point I’d argue you’re trying to be a tech savy user when they offered a way not to.
And very, very, very few edge cases are more difficult than that. most are plug-n-play (which to be fair, Linux has as well)
If you try to google a result for Linux you get a bunch of results for distributions that might not be yours. if you try to google a result for your distro you might get a result from years ago that is strongly not recommended anymore (especially if it leads to that Ubuntutalks website). And then the absolute worst case scenario, where you google and don’t actually find what you’re looking for, because the manufacturer does nothing with Linux and nobody cares about the problem.
A lot of windows was made around things that non-savy users were breaking. Nowadays a lot of the major issues I see people talk about are because they tried to do something that was very clearly something that they didn’t want to be done.
You say this as if it’s good. On Linux you don’t install drivers, they are just included and work. (Except Nvidia…)
I mean, if you’re biggest argument is, “they might Google the wrong distro”, then I think that really goes to show how few actual concerns there are against Linux.
Anyone who has to install the entire OS will know what distro they’re on. Hell, half of the distros come witha default background with the name on it…
if you don’t think that’s an issue, you probably are in the tech-savy category
I meet people on a daily basis who can’t even say what browser they’re on.
Yes, but that sort of user is also immediately stumped when any program fails to update in any OS. Hell, they call others to connect printers.
I’m not sure it’s fair to judge linux by the standards of the least capable when they are equally stupid about any OS.
@AnonTwo
Ah yes, windows users googling drivers, that *never* caused them to accidentally download a virus, right?
@const_void @KpntAutismus @MotoAsh @AProfessional
I don’t understand how you consider Windows drivers to be a mess compared to Linux? Do you mean for power users who like to manually configure their own drivers? Windows 10 and 11 are just plug and play with any device I can think of that an average user would use.
I don’t use Windows as my daily driver, but I have done a lot of IT work for people who do use Windows, so maybe I’m missing something.
On Linux a user does nothing. The kernel contains all drivers. The few userspace drivers that exist are there by default like Mesa.
On Windows they are spread out between vendors. Sometimes Windows manages them, sometimes it grabs ancient versions. Then you have to maintain them with updates.
A lot of drivers are spyware, Nvidia’s tool even requires an account.
Yea, I see what you mean. I definitely prefer the way that linux handles drivers.
From my experience, not too many people have had driver issues with the newer versions of windows, but I could have just gotten lucky there. I find that most non tech savy people don’t care if they have the latest driver or if it contains spyware or any of that. Most of them don’t know what a driver is, so they just plug it in and if it works they don’t care how or why.
I try to educate when I can but some people really don’t care to learn. Thanks for your explanation, I totally understand your reasoning.
Modern Windows is much better than like the Vista and earlier days for sure.
Though now I find a lot of accessories want you to install their crappy, and very sketchy, app just to set an rgb color.
@AProfessional @TopRamenBinLaden kind of delusional. I worked on a town hall for years and faced all kinds of driver on Linux. From printers to network adapters.
Meh, I have been using linux desktop exclusively for a decade now, and I have to disagree. It… sorta works, but it has definitely many many shortcomings and edge cases where it just shits itself completely — that is, the userspace. The kernel itself is rock solid.
@kaba0 @AProfessional you quit?
Many distros are actually very easy to install and setup. The problem is that Linux is not preinstalled on most computers.
Now try to sign a PDF
Open the PDF in Okular, click Tools->Digitally Sign, select the certificate you want to sign it with, and save the signed PDF.
To be fair, my husband is about as far from tech savvy as they come, and he’s been running Linux for years on his laptop. Every 2-3 years I upgrade him. Sometimes just within distros (Ubuntu 12.04 to 16.04 say. Other times, I’ve moved him distros (to fedora) or back to Ubuntu. Otherwise? I don’t touch his system. He’s been happy for years.
I disagree while agreeing. The biggest reason people use windows is simply because its pre-installed. That’s the same reason people use Edge on Windows or Bing as their search engine. They get it preinstalled and don’t know how to change it.
If you install anyone Linux and give them a simple and easy distro preinstalled they’re usually fine with a few words about how to use it, update it and install stuff. Especially if they’re not tech savvy because in this case they wouldn’t know exactly how to use Windows either. I mean look at companies: how many employees use Windows in their daily work but still don’t know how to actually usw windows? They get teached to use their software and tools but not the OS itself and have to figure things out on the OS level if they would want to change something on Windows too.
My observation was that people that are not tech savvy find it easier to understand some beginner friendly Linux distros than Windows.
If on the other hand a person is used to use Windows and knows how to actually use Windows it’s harder for them to switch because things are just different on Linux. For me it’s hard and annoying to use Windows which I have to do at work since February. Before that I used Linux in private my whole life, I used it in school because my school never used Windows as one of the few schools in my country and my last employer also used Linux. And from that perspective I can say that Windows is hard and not intuitive. It’s just being used because it’s being used. I guess you could compare it to Whatsapp vs Signal. From an objective standpoint Signal is better but most people still use WhatsApp because others use it and because it comes preinstalled on some Android phones.
@brayd I can confirm. I have installed Fedora Silverblue to a number of non-techies including my wife, her parents and several of her friends; I walked them through the system for a few minutes and explained basic operation. Most of them have been using it for years, never reported any sort of problem and even expressed being much more satisfied than before.
Totally agree!
It won’t get more normie than SteamOS, it is literally console kind of simplicity with the option to switch to a full blown DE.
Is it really really easy to install? Several distros are extremely smooth experiences if you don’t have completely weird hardware to support, but their installation is still an actual OS install procedure. As easy as Windows to install, but almost no one HAS to install their Windows like with Linux.
If steam OS is coming with Wine et. al. already set up (and it’d be silly if it didn’t) that definitely gives it a leg up on most distros for normies, at least.
Normies don’t install any OS, they buy devices with it pre-installed and if they fuck their installation up, they search someone who does it for them. Which is (almost) impossible for them to do when the OS has it’s root partition as read-only, like the SteamOS
You’d have to check one of the side-distros. SteamOS itself has no official installer yet, only available pre-installed on steamdeck.
There are distros that are organized to recreate it for normal installation though.
Though to be fair, that’s pretty “normie” to not have to experience the installation process at all. Most people will just use what shipped with their PC.
Yea, install availability and upgrades gone wrong are areas Linux needs a bit more progress, though I stand by that Linux is plenty good for daily driving once you’re staring at a GUI you’re comfortable with on the friendlier OS’s
I guess also app availability… Snap packs fucking suck and even normal package repos aren’t the simplest thing to deal with if something is only available in EPEL or some similar situation.
Though is that really unique to Linux? As soon as you do something outside of any normal program, it’s all wizardry to normies.
I’d say Executables (for all their risks) make it pretty easy for less savy users to get apps not immediately made available to them, given there are definite security issues.
But I will be fair that I think Linux’s flatpaks are helping a bit with making apps more available without worrying about the distro. Plus proton/wine lets users grab some of the useful exe’s from windows.
It’s improving I do agree, but it’s something that will hopefully keep improving.
It’s also really difficult to get into if you don’t already have an “in”. Yeah, some distros are pretty easy to use but others aren’t and figuring out which is which is pretty impossible for an outsider.
This is why KDE has been focusing on hardware vendors for a while.
Hopefully they make some in roads. KDE is what I’d recommend for Windows users for sure. XFCE is great too but it feels a little… raw? compared to KDE. Definitely an upside for efficiency, but I think normies would much more appreciate the full-featured feel of KDE.
So it’s not…?
It is after the right distro is installed. The only reason you have to be tech savvy at all to do the basics is because it has to be installed.