If you need help explaining just how fascist the west is to an average person, point out how they keep aligning themselves with some of the most savage murderous regimes in human history. There isn’t a single answer that doesn’t make them look like a complete monster.
By that standard the only countries not monstrous are those too feeble to ally with.
Plenty of countries on all continents have sided with oppressive regimes, and conveniently ignored atrocities as long as they’re aimed at someone else. In anything from the Korea or Pakistani wars, to genocides in Central America, to slave trading within the African continent.
The West is due some criticism, but this approach is useless.
America itself has been an oppressive regime. Britain and France were both oppressive regimes not too far in the past (and still to some degree today).
Why are people surprised that oppressive regimes ally themselves with other oppressive regimes? Geopolitics isn’t a story of “good” and “bad,” it’s a story of rational self-interest.
If freedom of press is one of the ways you can assess how fascist a state is, which it is, then I wonder which countries you consider better than the west. China? Russia? North Korea? Yeah, all places renown for not silencing journalists, poisoning political opponents or ruling with an iron fist. All places where you can just criticize the government, publicly, on prime TV, in the journals, without repercussions.
Also all places where they don’t murder people for their political views, where they don’t incarcerate them, torture them, send them to “re-education camps” or try to genocide entire ethnic groups in order to reduce dissent.
At the end of the day, “the west” remains the only place where you can actually go on tv, in the squares and protest against the government decisions, criticize them and even vote for the government to leave power. Is it perfect? Hell no, it’s a disgusting system rigged by the rich and powerful, but it’s still miles ahead of any totalitarian, authoritarian dictatorship.
Also it’s not like China isn’t buying lots of oil from Iran, a country which it’s as much a savage murderous regime as Saudi Arabia, and from Russia, an imperialistic warmongering nation. And the reason it’s clear, they need energy as much as the west needs energy. It’s the reason why everyone puts up with those kinds of people.
The sooner we, as a species, can move away from oil, coal, gas and the likes, the better it will be for everyone. No more energy wars and a cleaner planet overall.
Russia does the same to countries in their sphere of influence who even think about approaching the west. I’m looking at Georgia, Moldavia and now Ukraine. Also they really like to meddle in Africa and the middle east through PMCs like Wagner, prop up local dictatorships and harvest labor and natural resources for themselves.
China is also trying their hand at the imperialistic game, although they are newer at it. They are trying to enter many African countries and stationing there Private Security Companies (which are paramilitaries still controlled by the Chinese government, because of course they are). In Asia they are also trying to increase their influence. In the South China Sea they are trying to claim other nations exclusive economic zones as their own while in the Indian Ocean they are trying to secure military ports by forcing 99 years leases (similar to the British lease on the port of Hong Kong). I believe this plan is called the string of pearls and I also believe Indians consider it a way of encircling them (China-Pakistan corridor, China-Myanmar corridor and in the ocean ports in Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Djibouti and the Mauritius).
Let’s say that all major powers have tried and keep trying their hand at imperialism. The only difference is that the US has a much bigger economic power than Russia and has been playing the game for a lot longer than modern China
How much good has your criticism of the government done?
Do you have affordable housing? Are your healthcare needs covered? Is your taxpayer money going to help improve your life? Is the homeless issue solved? Has your government avoided going to war? Has your government fixed the rampant racial inequality in the prison system?
I say this like it’s to an American, but really it applies to most Western countries.
Well, some of those point have improved in some countries of the western block. Not everyone is American btw. And I’m not saying the west is perfect, but when making a statement like “this is why the west is the worst” you also need to tell me who is better.
Lots of these issues are extremely present in other non-western countries as well and even more so. Or are you telling me that outside of western countries everyone else has affordable housing, free, good and available healthcare, a good and fair justice system, no racial inequality and no wars?
Sure, I’m not denying that conditions aren’t perfect, but the argument being made is that having a democracy influences government policy to align with citizens’ interests.
Looking at per-capita wealth, the West should be doing much better on these key issues under the assumption that the government exists to make people’s lives better.
Who is doing so much better though? It seems like most countries have similar issues and it’s not really a West vs East thing. Costa Rica seems like one of the nicer places to live in the world right now, but it’s a “Western” country and it’s also tiny.
I look at Eastern countries like Korea and Japan and see a ton of problems with workers being abused and authoritarian legal systems. Better than the US in some ways but worse in others. I would rather live in the US despite the worse healthcare cause I don’t want to work 12 hours a day.
US labour law exists in spite of democracy, not because of it. Also, I think it’s hard to argue that Korea and Japan aren’t Western democracies (in that, they value Western democratic ideals and structure their governments around the Western concept of democracy).
See the problem with this logic is that you’re weighing the west’s real actions at best, or probably their white washed actions against fairytale versions of their adversaries who only exist in the west’s propaganda. It’s not hard to be better than someone written to be a caricature of evil.
Or maybe it’s the opposite and it’s Chinese propaganda and Russian propaganda depicting a caricature of the west where everyone apparently is a Nazi, while suppressing all discourse about their evil doings? Maybe they’re the ones who created this fairytale.
Have you ever considered that possibility? Or you really think Russia and China have never done any wrong and have no propaganda, they’re just squeaky clean? Because let me tell you then…
This is a brain dead take because it’s just guilt by association. Having diplomatic relations with countries around the world doesn’t mean that you endorse or support their government. A country that’s ruled by a shitty ideology like Fascism or Marxism is something to be weary of, but these countries do in fact exist and they do play a role in global politics and economics. For example, the UAE and Israel normalizing relations doesn’t mean that they support each other, but they recognize each other’s influence and understand that diplomacy and cooperation is more beneficial and productive than shunning each other.
I mean we tried to sanction, shun, and ignore authoritarian countries like Cuba and North Korea for decades… How has that worked out for us? My point is that we can’t cut relations with every country we don’t like. There are situations where that should be the case and there are definitely arguments for us to be more cautious when dealing with these types of regimes, but we can’t cut ourselves off from the vast majority of the world (which is authoritarian) nor can we force countries to adopt our ways (we tried with Iraq and Afghanistan, it didn’t work).
If you need help explaining just how fascist the west is to an average person, point out how they keep aligning themselves with some of the most savage murderous regimes in human history. There isn’t a single answer that doesn’t make them look like a complete monster.
People who talk of the west as fascist must not know much of what’s going on in the east or eastern history.
Whatboutism? What’s that?
By that standard the only countries not monstrous are those too feeble to ally with.
Plenty of countries on all continents have sided with oppressive regimes, and conveniently ignored atrocities as long as they’re aimed at someone else. In anything from the Korea or Pakistani wars, to genocides in Central America, to slave trading within the African continent.
The West is due some criticism, but this approach is useless.
America itself has been an oppressive regime. Britain and France were both oppressive regimes not too far in the past (and still to some degree today).
Why are people surprised that oppressive regimes ally themselves with other oppressive regimes? Geopolitics isn’t a story of “good” and “bad,” it’s a story of rational self-interest.
If freedom of press is one of the ways you can assess how fascist a state is, which it is, then I wonder which countries you consider better than the west. China? Russia? North Korea? Yeah, all places renown for not silencing journalists, poisoning political opponents or ruling with an iron fist. All places where you can just criticize the government, publicly, on prime TV, in the journals, without repercussions.
Also all places where they don’t murder people for their political views, where they don’t incarcerate them, torture them, send them to “re-education camps” or try to genocide entire ethnic groups in order to reduce dissent.
At the end of the day, “the west” remains the only place where you can actually go on tv, in the squares and protest against the government decisions, criticize them and even vote for the government to leave power. Is it perfect? Hell no, it’s a disgusting system rigged by the rich and powerful, but it’s still miles ahead of any totalitarian, authoritarian dictatorship.
Also it’s not like China isn’t buying lots of oil from Iran, a country which it’s as much a savage murderous regime as Saudi Arabia, and from Russia, an imperialistic warmongering nation. And the reason it’s clear, they need energy as much as the west needs energy. It’s the reason why everyone puts up with those kinds of people.
The sooner we, as a species, can move away from oil, coal, gas and the likes, the better it will be for everyone. No more energy wars and a cleaner planet overall.
So it’s OK to fund death squads and start war at every country that even remotely approaches socialism if you allow the illusion of freedom. Got it.
Russia does the same to countries in their sphere of influence who even think about approaching the west. I’m looking at Georgia, Moldavia and now Ukraine. Also they really like to meddle in Africa and the middle east through PMCs like Wagner, prop up local dictatorships and harvest labor and natural resources for themselves.
China is also trying their hand at the imperialistic game, although they are newer at it. They are trying to enter many African countries and stationing there Private Security Companies (which are paramilitaries still controlled by the Chinese government, because of course they are). In Asia they are also trying to increase their influence. In the South China Sea they are trying to claim other nations exclusive economic zones as their own while in the Indian Ocean they are trying to secure military ports by forcing 99 years leases (similar to the British lease on the port of Hong Kong). I believe this plan is called the string of pearls and I also believe Indians consider it a way of encircling them (China-Pakistan corridor, China-Myanmar corridor and in the ocean ports in Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Djibouti and the Mauritius).
Let’s say that all major powers have tried and keep trying their hand at imperialism. The only difference is that the US has a much bigger economic power than Russia and has been playing the game for a lot longer than modern China
How much good has your criticism of the government done?
Do you have affordable housing? Are your healthcare needs covered? Is your taxpayer money going to help improve your life? Is the homeless issue solved? Has your government avoided going to war? Has your government fixed the rampant racial inequality in the prison system?
I say this like it’s to an American, but really it applies to most Western countries.
Well, some of those point have improved in some countries of the western block. Not everyone is American btw. And I’m not saying the west is perfect, but when making a statement like “this is why the west is the worst” you also need to tell me who is better.
Lots of these issues are extremely present in other non-western countries as well and even more so. Or are you telling me that outside of western countries everyone else has affordable housing, free, good and available healthcare, a good and fair justice system, no racial inequality and no wars?
Sure, I’m not denying that conditions aren’t perfect, but the argument being made is that having a democracy influences government policy to align with citizens’ interests.
Looking at per-capita wealth, the West should be doing much better on these key issues under the assumption that the government exists to make people’s lives better.
Who is doing so much better though? It seems like most countries have similar issues and it’s not really a West vs East thing. Costa Rica seems like one of the nicer places to live in the world right now, but it’s a “Western” country and it’s also tiny.
I look at Eastern countries like Korea and Japan and see a ton of problems with workers being abused and authoritarian legal systems. Better than the US in some ways but worse in others. I would rather live in the US despite the worse healthcare cause I don’t want to work 12 hours a day.
US labour law exists in spite of democracy, not because of it. Also, I think it’s hard to argue that Korea and Japan aren’t Western democracies (in that, they value Western democratic ideals and structure their governments around the Western concept of democracy).
China ended absolute poverty within their borders. That’s 800 million people in a 40 year period.
You’re a fool. CPC / CCP did no such thing. Plenty of starving homeless people in China to this day and zero social safety net.
Tell me you haven’t been to China without telling me you haven’t been to China
Here are some of my sources.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1467-8489.12353
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0264837721001411
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S019739752200128X
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13892240601062488
Please provide your sources for starving homeless legions.
See the problem with this logic is that you’re weighing the west’s real actions at best, or probably their white washed actions against fairytale versions of their adversaries who only exist in the west’s propaganda. It’s not hard to be better than someone written to be a caricature of evil.
Or maybe it’s the opposite and it’s Chinese propaganda and Russian propaganda depicting a caricature of the west where everyone apparently is a Nazi, while suppressing all discourse about their evil doings? Maybe they’re the ones who created this fairytale.
Have you ever considered that possibility? Or you really think Russia and China have never done any wrong and have no propaganda, they’re just squeaky clean? Because let me tell you then…
This is a brain dead take because it’s just guilt by association. Having diplomatic relations with countries around the world doesn’t mean that you endorse or support their government. A country that’s ruled by a shitty ideology like Fascism or Marxism is something to be weary of, but these countries do in fact exist and they do play a role in global politics and economics. For example, the UAE and Israel normalizing relations doesn’t mean that they support each other, but they recognize each other’s influence and understand that diplomacy and cooperation is more beneficial and productive than shunning each other.
I mean we tried to sanction, shun, and ignore authoritarian countries like Cuba and North Korea for decades… How has that worked out for us? My point is that we can’t cut relations with every country we don’t like. There are situations where that should be the case and there are definitely arguments for us to be more cautious when dealing with these types of regimes, but we can’t cut ourselves off from the vast majority of the world (which is authoritarian) nor can we force countries to adopt our ways (we tried with Iraq and Afghanistan, it didn’t work).
The west’s own savage actions so massively dwarf anything Saudi has done in this period that it’s a pretty silly guilt by association point.
Maybe to you, but these people are either unaware of their actions or think their actions are good. You have to tie it to something else.