The Grace Hopper Celebration is meant to unite women in tech. This year droves of men came looking for jobs.

The Grace Hopper Celebration is meant to unite women in tech. This year droves of men came looking for jobs.

  • @sudneoEnglish
    2•1 year ago

    Women are in the exact same position you are in, with the added disadvantage of being women

    This is your assumption. You are assuming that the men going to the event are average men, which on average are more likely to be employed in tech. I don’t think that’s true in this case, I think it’s mostly desperate people, possibly also from marginalized groups. Looking at the video I see mostly foreigners, possibly in need of a visa to not be kicked out of the country. Keep in mind they paid 600 bucks for a super tiny chance (imagine what are the chances that recruiters at that event will not ignore them because they went there to recruit women).

    Also, reading a bit online it seems that there is always been a percentage of men attending that event.

    I will not address the last paragraph, your suggestion of what “this proves” is completely arbitrary and prejudicial, I won’t say what that proves, instead.

      • @sudneoEnglish
        3•1 year ago

        Because women never need visas? Are never foreign or desperate?

        Of course, but how is this relevant. The argument there is that we are not talking about the tech-bros dominating the tech field, we are talking about a specific subgroup of the male population, the outliers, which means using the average male statistics to deliberate on this specific people misses at least partially the point.

        They are free to make their own spaces

        This is what really puzzles me. This kind of argument is unacceptable in any other context, because it completely ignores the necessary conditions and balance of power needed to “create your own space”. It’s like saying “women can create their own tech companies and hire only women there”. It doesn’t make sense because it would be ignoring the fact that to create a company you need network, you need resources, capital, and if you are already marginalized, you can’t just do that. I would suggest that foreigners out of a job are not in the material condition to organize a hundreds of thousands-people fair with huge sponsors.

        so they can feel safe.

        So that they can find a job*

        The fact that they spent $600 when they are theoretically desperate just makes them foolish as well as entitled.

        I am not sure how you are not seeing the foolish attempt exactly as an expression of that desperation, but as an expression of entitlement.

        But I really don’t expect you to understand any of that.

        Why do you need to assume that it’s a matter of understanding and not a matter of simply having different opinions and views?

          • @sudneoEnglish
            2•1 year ago

            That was a theory you put forward, but it’s a strawman.

            This has nothing to do with a strawman. It’s literally an educated guess based on the limited information available.

            • Most of them look foreigners (from SE Asia specifically)
            • People who would get jobs very easy wouldn’t spend 600$ for a conference not meant for them just to piss off people, with realistically extremely low chances to get anything out of it.

            felt entitled to lie their way into a space that isn’t meant for them, to the point where they dominated the event

            I am not sure how many of those lied. Some did, and that is shitty, but the event is technically open to men too, men have always participated to that event, apparently. See for example this from 2017. So I am not even sure that lying was a determining factor.

            I’ve been desperate, and I used the resources open to me. I didn’t lie to access resources I wasn’t entitled to.

            You will forgive me, but your personal anecdote in a completely different context doesn’t count as a solid argument.

            safe places

            You are talking about a conference event with hundreds of thousands of attendees, sponsored by some of the biggest, and evil, companies on the planet…apologies, but this rhetoric of a safe space sounds out of place for this particular example. Also, there is no point to use this personal moral arguments, because they are useless. “If you would understand desperation/risk of deportation/whatever then…” is not an argument for anything. I don’t know what you understand or don’t, let’s stick to the opinions we actually support?

            Because you don’t understand, your opinion and view isn’t as relevant.

            This is your tautology, where you say that if A then B, and then B then C, but A is your pure assumption. Ex falso quodlibet, you can build any argument this way.

              • @sudneoEnglish
                1•1 year ago

                It’s not a wild guess, and you are not willing to admit that simply because it’s not convenient to your arguments. I explained what the basis for that guess is, I didn’t flip a coin, but made a deduction. There is a margin of error, for sure, and I might be wrong, but I would take that bet. I also did not refuse to engage in anything, I considered (almost/) every point every single person made in every comment (despite the huge amount of repetition), so what are you talking about? “Pointing out” also doesn’t mean anything, I explained my thoughts using that “guess” as the basis to make a difference that you were not making (i.e., between the average man and a subset of men with different properties - and privileges/power in this case). You disagreeing on this does not make it invalid, it simply means that we might have different opinions. I for once disagree with “Desperation doesn’t qualify someone to run roughshod over the boundaries of others, and to lie to do so. That is pure entitlement.” as I don’t interpret what happened in that way at all, for example. Fortunately or unfortunately, this is a judgment call, it is not something we can observe with a microscope and determine objectively, this whole topic is wholly influenced by culture, background, experiences etc. You failing to see that and acting in this very dogmatic way is fairly surprising.

                Get out of here

                Nobody is forcing you to discuss if you don’t want to, but you don’t get to decide jack for what others should do. If you feel like, block me or drop the conversation, as apparently this comment already shows that you have no desire to engage honestly, considering you ignored every single point I made, not viceversa.