Because they don’t want it, simple as that. Why do you think they’ve been illegally stealing Palestinian land and bulldozing their homes for illegal settlements for decades?
They have. The issue is that their country was drawn up, by Europeans, without the consent of the people that were already living there. So the Palestinians, rightfully, don’t want any Israel to be there at all, on account of it being on land stolen from them.
I know a lot of the world is European living in stolen lands, but, surprisingly, none of the rest of the people give a single shot what happened in the last 500 years, they simply just want the intruders gone.
Imo the whole “let’s give Jewish people a state after the holocaust” thing was a good idea, but they should have put it Germany. Germany were the ones who actually Did the holocaust, therefore there’s some argument to be made that they were entitled to German land, you could consider it a form of reparations. There was no argument for Jewish people being entitled to Palestine because their ancient ancestors lived there like 1800 years ago or whatever
Europeans treat Jewish people like shit for thousands of years
creates support for Jewish sovern state
languishes a while but antisemitism gets worse
in typical European fashion it is decided to just start settling where other people already live and force the existence of a country
ww1, Britain and France decide they know how to do a middle east. Results show typical commitment to stability and fairness.
settlement is supported by various and sundry European powers inc German Reich in lead up to and during ww2 because everyone hates Jewish people and wants to foist them off to some other, preferable brown skinned, person’s country.
after ww2 everyone eventually gets mad at the results of this sensitive and thoughtful plan, including European supporters, neighbouring countries, Palestinans, and many Jewish people. Fear and hatred fuel dominance of increasingly aggressive right wing political parties.
everyone except the USA that is. Their government has a blast supply weapons after Britain and France wash their hands and claim guiltlessness.
I don’t fucking get on how Israel has never really tried forming a state in which both palestinians and jews can live in peace together.
The Zionist terrorist of the British Mandate period were founding members of the state of Israel. For example Menachem Begin who later became a founding member of the Likud party which Netanyahu belongs to. These asshats from the start wanted to get rid of all Palestinians/Arabs and get the whole country for Jewish people. That’s why the Zyonist terrorist fist targeted communities where Jews and Palestinians/Arabs were living together in peace. Netanyahu is just continuing this goal and he would rather die than to allow for a stable two state solution to become reality.
The “one state solution” is the only real way forward but it’s not surprising it’s not very popular. The Jews would be a minority in this hypothetical country and there are two problems with that:
One, the right wing types types really will only accept a Jewish-dominant theocratic state as an outcome. Everything comes second to that. Even the others feel like they “need” a safe state that’s free from generations of oppression against Jews. There are more Palestinians than Jews right now, so giving those Palestinians any kind of political representation is a non starter.
Two, how do you think the Palestinians feel about Jews right now? How do you think they would behave if given political power right now? I’m not saying they’d all turn around and look for equal but opposite revenge but I doubt they’re happy about all this. Further, do you think the Israelis are going to want to put themselves in that position?
So because of that. while i think the one state solution is the only realistic non-genocidal way forward i’m not optimistic about it coming to pass.
What you’re saying in the last part is basically that the Zionists fucked up and because of them fucking up the conflict became so polarized that a one state solution is impossible.
I agree with that but only because it’s like that today, but there have always been means to descalate diplomical situations but if the state Israel keeps voting for Netanjahu I don’t think that things will be better.
The problem is though that he is a populist and everywhere on the globe populists are getting power and there does not seem to be a solution in sight for that problem.
I agree that this is the situation today and not the situation yesterday, though i don’t see it changing tomorrow (as i said, i guess). I think back in the 1990s a two state solution was conceivable, even, but that was a long time ago.
The same reason why in the US we have people attacking trans people (even when they’ve literally never seen one in person) and why our monopoly laws have gone from “chop them up for the common good” to “you better stop it or we might levy a symbolic fine”
The political window has been shifted so far right that the left’s position is “we need to be nicer to the people in Gaza, but really carefully since they’ll subjugate us if they have the chance”
It’s not an accident, it’s a small group of people with a lot of money who are investing it in hijacking discourse for their own power.
If you get on tv and start pitching socialism, you’re instantly dismissed as a radical. You can’t even have the conversation - people don’t understand what that means and will instinctively recite nonsensical talking points, because they’ve been fed those for so long it would take an intensive college course to unlearn enough that they can have the actual conversation of “would this work better”. The vast majority has internalized the idea that “raw dog capitalism is the only feasible system”
It’s the same with Israel. They’ve been fed propoganda so long that you can’t have the conversation - they’ve internalized the idea that Gaza is a bunch of animals who want to kill them, and the furthest left thing you can pitch to them is “well, maybe we should improve their situation economically, but we have to be careful not to let our foot on their neck slip off too fast”
Fun fact - there’s a lot of overlap with the groups doing this in the US and the ones doing it in Israel. By that I mean literally the same groups are funding both propaganda efforts, like the heritage foundation
In Israel Muslims and Arabs and ethnic Palestinian citizens do live in relative harmony, with all the same rights as Jews, including ability to be in government leadership.
Throughout all of Israel’s history it has been cold, hard, fact that if Israel were to give citizenship rights to ALL Palestinians, those Palestinians would have the ability to vote Israel out of existence… To turn it into an anti-Jewish theocracy. And half a century of terrorism and attempts by surrounding countries to wipe Israel off the map shows that they are very inclined to do just that.
That’s why Israel angled for a two state solution. Peace WITHOUT the destruction of Israel.
Zionism really kicked off in popularity with the Balfour declaration which was an attempt by Britain to sway Jews everywhere to be sympathetic towards British interests. Zionists we’re upset at the lack of action in the subsequent years by the British and began smuggling Jewish settlers into the mandate, causing tensions with the local Palestinian Muslims, Christian’s and, to a lesser extent, Jews.
This is how the foundation of the state of Israel started. When the UN voted to establish Israel they gave a near 50/50 land split when Jews were less than 25% of the total population and Palestinians made up more than 60%. People were clearly mad and the events of the Nakba occurred.
Since Israel’s domination of the land and both Palestinian Territories, Israel has increasingly gone with right wing governments like the current one in power, that has not all that slowly, nor all that suddenly, codified laws that keeps Palestinians as an underclass even within the borders of Israel. It’s become an apartheid state in many ways.
If you read up on the history of Bibi Netanyahu, who is still currently in power and has been for around 20 years, you will find he’s never really been shy of hiding his intentions to make Israel a state for just Jews.
Amnesty International’s new investigation shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Jewish Israelis. This amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law.
Laws, policies and practices which are intended to maintain a cruel system of control over Palestinians, have left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in a constant state of fear and insecurity.
Amnesty international has created a logical fallacy in claiming that Israel is apartheid. For that claim to be true they are assuming that all Palestinians in the occupied territories are somehow disenfranchised subjects of the Israeli government.
If that logic were true, then we would have had to have said the same thing about Iraqis when the United States occupied Iraq. But of course that’s a ludicrous claim. The United States didn’t suddenly become an apartheid nation just because we conquered enemy territory.
Just because a territory is under military occupation does not mean that the people in those territories are citizens in waiting.
On the other hand, the Muslim Arab and ethnic Palestinians who ARE citizens of Israel have all the same rights and privileges as Jewish citizens of Israel.
Think of it like this: when Trump was President he could have come out and said that the United States was a nation for Christians alone.
He could say it. He could get applause for it. But that wouldn’t make it true.
In law school I took an Israel-US comparative law class. Israel doesn’t have a constitution, but they do have Basic Laws which serve the same purpose. Among those laws are guarantees of equal protection regardless of religion.
So, think Israel’s PM as an Israeli Trump. He’s a dangerous, opening corrupt zealot, but he had a lot of internal opposition, and his words are not law.
It’s hard to form an opposing party when the regime has a tendency to assassinate anyone who does. Do Palestinians really support the principles of Hamas, or are there just no other options in Gaza?
I totally agree. Palestinians have a difficult road forward. But them sorting their own shit out is a prerequisite to their ability to make and execute a peace treaty.
Relative harmony shouldn’t include soldiers targeting the heads of teenagers with “non-lethal” rubber bullets and killing them for sport. The torture will continue until compliance is achieved.
Please check your facts, this is completely wrong. People of all religions enjoy equal rights in Israel. There are Muslims, Christians, and others in government positions, in the police and army, judges, and in every other sector. Movement and transportation is not limited to anyone, especially not based on religion. Please don’t lie.
“In a 2007 report, U.N. Special Rapporteur for Palestine John Dugard wrote, “elements of the Israeli occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law” and suggested that the “legal consequences of a prolonged occupation with features of colonialism and apartheid” be put to the International Court of Justice.”
"On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International published a report, Israel’s Apartheid Against Palestinians: Cruel System of Domination and Crime Against Humanity, which stated that Israeli practices in Israel and the occupied territories equate to apartheid and that territorial fragmentation of the Palestinians ‘serves as a foundational element of the regime of oppression and domination’ "
Another thing from this article is this; “Foreign governments who have used the word “apartheid” to describe the situation in Israel or in the Israeli-occupied territories include those of Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Nicaragua, North Korea, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela” I know that quoting this may be unsupportive to my argument at first, because I don’t like these countries at all, and I am not pro Hamas because I don’t want any religion to govern the rest anyway, but I think what one really can see in this is, that this topic is so polarized, that it’s very hard to find the truth and that is why I quoted the UN part
This is definitely not true. If you are Palestinian you don’t have freedom of movement inside Palestine let alone freedom to enter Israel. They’re not all permanently barred (gotta let them in so they can work for Israel) but they’re not free.
You’re also not able to live in peace in Palestine. Settlers regularly come in and drive people out. Food, water. medical supplies, and more are tightly controlled by Israel.
There are non Jews who are Israel citizens, including some Palestinian people, but that’s a different story and those are not the people we’re talking about.
Palestinian. They have the exact same rights as any other citizen
That’s so ridiculously false that you’re either wholly ignorant about the reality of the notoriously discriminate ethnostate that is Israel or deliberately lying to further a false narrative.
That’s some top notch equivocation there. We’re not talking about whatever ethnicity you’re referring to as “Palestinian”; we’re talking about the people who live in Gaza and the West Bank, none of whom are granted any rights by Israel.
There are far more ethnic Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank living in third world conditions, who are denied Israeli citizenship than there are Palestinian Israeli citizens, and even the ones with citizenship are subjected to a level of racism and state violence comparable to Black Americans in the Jim Crow south.
There are about 7 million Jews in Israel and about 2 million Arabs. (With like less than a million “others”? Something like that.) Palestine’s population has been declining (for some… mysterious reason…) but there are still about 5 million Palestinians.
It’s simply a question of the numbers: you can have a theocratic Jewish state of Israel or you can have a representative democracy that gives equal Rights to the Palestinians, but not both. Likud is a party of theocrats and they’ve all decided long ago which is more important to them.
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Because they don’t want it, simple as that. Why do you think they’ve been illegally stealing Palestinian land and bulldozing their homes for illegal settlements for decades?
They have. The issue is that their country was drawn up, by Europeans, without the consent of the people that were already living there. So the Palestinians, rightfully, don’t want any Israel to be there at all, on account of it being on land stolen from them.
I know a lot of the world is European living in stolen lands, but, surprisingly, none of the rest of the people give a single shot what happened in the last 500 years, they simply just want the intruders gone.
Imo the whole “let’s give Jewish people a state after the holocaust” thing was a good idea, but they should have put it Germany. Germany were the ones who actually Did the holocaust, therefore there’s some argument to be made that they were entitled to German land, you could consider it a form of reparations. There was no argument for Jewish people being entitled to Palestine because their ancient ancestors lived there like 1800 years ago or whatever
the settlement started before British support which came later. It’s super complicated.
edit: reasonable overview on Wikipedia of events leading up to Israel actually https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
Bastardised simple summary is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_peace_process
The Zionist terrorist of the British Mandate period were founding members of the state of Israel. For example Menachem Begin who later became a founding member of the Likud party which Netanyahu belongs to. These asshats from the start wanted to get rid of all Palestinians/Arabs and get the whole country for Jewish people. That’s why the Zyonist terrorist fist targeted communities where Jews and Palestinians/Arabs were living together in peace. Netanyahu is just continuing this goal and he would rather die than to allow for a stable two state solution to become reality.
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The people under apartheid aren’t accepting their place? Shocker.
Israel will never know peace while they continue to oppress Palestinians.
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“There’s no justification for terrorism, so here’s my justification for oppression.”
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Israel won’t know peace if they stop either. How did the US and Canada solve ‘the problem’ with the natives?
If they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t then why not do the right thing?
Because they would get killed by the radical islamists
The “one state solution” is the only real way forward but it’s not surprising it’s not very popular. The Jews would be a minority in this hypothetical country and there are two problems with that:
One, the right wing types types really will only accept a Jewish-dominant theocratic state as an outcome. Everything comes second to that. Even the others feel like they “need” a safe state that’s free from generations of oppression against Jews. There are more Palestinians than Jews right now, so giving those Palestinians any kind of political representation is a non starter.
Two, how do you think the Palestinians feel about Jews right now? How do you think they would behave if given political power right now? I’m not saying they’d all turn around and look for equal but opposite revenge but I doubt they’re happy about all this. Further, do you think the Israelis are going to want to put themselves in that position?
So because of that. while i think the one state solution is the only realistic non-genocidal way forward i’m not optimistic about it coming to pass.
What you’re saying in the last part is basically that the Zionists fucked up and because of them fucking up the conflict became so polarized that a one state solution is impossible.
I agree with that but only because it’s like that today, but there have always been means to descalate diplomical situations but if the state Israel keeps voting for Netanjahu I don’t think that things will be better.
The problem is though that he is a populist and everywhere on the globe populists are getting power and there does not seem to be a solution in sight for that problem.
I agree that this is the situation today and not the situation yesterday, though i don’t see it changing tomorrow (as i said, i guess). I think back in the 1990s a two state solution was conceivable, even, but that was a long time ago.
The same reason why in the US we have people attacking trans people (even when they’ve literally never seen one in person) and why our monopoly laws have gone from “chop them up for the common good” to “you better stop it or we might levy a symbolic fine”
The political window has been shifted so far right that the left’s position is “we need to be nicer to the people in Gaza, but really carefully since they’ll subjugate us if they have the chance”
It’s not an accident, it’s a small group of people with a lot of money who are investing it in hijacking discourse for their own power.
If you get on tv and start pitching socialism, you’re instantly dismissed as a radical. You can’t even have the conversation - people don’t understand what that means and will instinctively recite nonsensical talking points, because they’ve been fed those for so long it would take an intensive college course to unlearn enough that they can have the actual conversation of “would this work better”. The vast majority has internalized the idea that “raw dog capitalism is the only feasible system”
It’s the same with Israel. They’ve been fed propoganda so long that you can’t have the conversation - they’ve internalized the idea that Gaza is a bunch of animals who want to kill them, and the furthest left thing you can pitch to them is “well, maybe we should improve their situation economically, but we have to be careful not to let our foot on their neck slip off too fast”
Fun fact - there’s a lot of overlap with the groups doing this in the US and the ones doing it in Israel. By that I mean literally the same groups are funding both propaganda efforts, like the heritage foundation
In Israel Muslims and Arabs and ethnic Palestinian citizens do live in relative harmony, with all the same rights as Jews, including ability to be in government leadership.
Throughout all of Israel’s history it has been cold, hard, fact that if Israel were to give citizenship rights to ALL Palestinians, those Palestinians would have the ability to vote Israel out of existence… To turn it into an anti-Jewish theocracy. And half a century of terrorism and attempts by surrounding countries to wipe Israel off the map shows that they are very inclined to do just that.
That’s why Israel angled for a two state solution. Peace WITHOUT the destruction of Israel.
Both of these statements are just wrong.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Balfour-Declaration
Zionism really kicked off in popularity with the Balfour declaration which was an attempt by Britain to sway Jews everywhere to be sympathetic towards British interests. Zionists we’re upset at the lack of action in the subsequent years by the British and began smuggling Jewish settlers into the mandate, causing tensions with the local Palestinian Muslims, Christian’s and, to a lesser extent, Jews.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/gallery/2023/5/15/ethnic-cleansing-by-zionists-in-palestine
This is how the foundation of the state of Israel started. When the UN voted to establish Israel they gave a near 50/50 land split when Jews were less than 25% of the total population and Palestinians made up more than 60%. People were clearly mad and the events of the Nakba occurred.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
Since Israel’s domination of the land and both Palestinian Territories, Israel has increasingly gone with right wing governments like the current one in power, that has not all that slowly, nor all that suddenly, codified laws that keeps Palestinians as an underclass even within the borders of Israel. It’s become an apartheid state in many ways.
https://www.npr.org/2019/03/11/702264118/netanyahu-says-israel-is-nation-state-of-the-jewish-people-and-them-alone
If you read up on the history of Bibi Netanyahu, who is still currently in power and has been for around 20 years, you will find he’s never really been shy of hiding his intentions to make Israel a state for just Jews.
None of your links rebut any of my claims.
Third link:
Can you read? It’s the 4th and 5th paragraph.
Yeah. Can you?
Amnesty international has created a logical fallacy in claiming that Israel is apartheid. For that claim to be true they are assuming that all Palestinians in the occupied territories are somehow disenfranchised subjects of the Israeli government.
If that logic were true, then we would have had to have said the same thing about Iraqis when the United States occupied Iraq. But of course that’s a ludicrous claim. The United States didn’t suddenly become an apartheid nation just because we conquered enemy territory.
Just because a territory is under military occupation does not mean that the people in those territories are citizens in waiting.
On the other hand, the Muslim Arab and ethnic Palestinians who ARE citizens of Israel have all the same rights and privileges as Jewish citizens of Israel.
First thing: the current leader of Israel has explicitly stated Israel is a state for Jews
https://www.npr.org/2019/03/11/702264118/netanyahu-says-israel-is-nation-state-of-the-jewish-people-and-them-alone
How is the current PM of Israel explicitly stating the government is just for Jews not disenfranchisement?
Second thing: there’s a difference between formal citizenship and full citizenship
https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/responses/israel-as-an-ethnic-democracy-palestinian-citizens-and-the-fight-for-equal-rights
The fact that there is a difference precludes equality.
Think of it like this: when Trump was President he could have come out and said that the United States was a nation for Christians alone.
He could say it. He could get applause for it. But that wouldn’t make it true.
In law school I took an Israel-US comparative law class. Israel doesn’t have a constitution, but they do have Basic Laws which serve the same purpose. Among those laws are guarantees of equal protection regardless of religion.
So, think Israel’s PM as an Israeli Trump. He’s a dangerous, opening corrupt zealot, but he had a lot of internal opposition, and his words are not law.
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Palestinians lost the right to claim they’re not Hamas when they elected Hamas to lead them.
The opposition party only has 14 percent support.
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The different is that Trump has never cracked 40 percent support in the US. Hamas has gotten at high as 75 percent among the Palestinians.
Also Trump lost the popular vote. Democrats have always had more support.
Hamas’s opposition only has 14% support.
So sure, not all Palestinians support Hamas, but the overwhelming majority of them either support Hamas strongly or are on the fence about them.
It’s hard to form an opposing party when the regime has a tendency to assassinate anyone who does. Do Palestinians really support the principles of Hamas, or are there just no other options in Gaza?
I totally agree. Palestinians have a difficult road forward. But them sorting their own shit out is a prerequisite to their ability to make and execute a peace treaty.
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It was Israel who decided that they wanted Hamas to lead palestinians rather than the Palestine Liberation Organization.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
For decades the PLO had shown that they were not interested in peaceful coexistence. And that would prove to be true in the following decades as well.
In funding the PLO’s political opposition, Israel was attempting to charge the political landscape, and weaken the PLO.
Remember the PLO might have been secular, but they were still terrorists.
In that context you can see how creating the group that would someday much later evolve into hamas was a bad gamble, but hindsight is 20-20.
Relative harmony shouldn’t include soldiers targeting the heads of teenagers with “non-lethal” rubber bullets and killing them for sport. The torture will continue until compliance is achieved.
Correct. Which is why any soldiers that do this are subject to the justice system in Israel. It’s not condoned behavior.
But do you see Palestinian police rounding up the Hamas terrorists?
Is just completely wrong: For example if you’re now Jewish, you are by law literally not allowed to drive on highways.
Is reactionistic speculation and literally racist.
Omegalul, downvoted for being right.
Please check your facts, this is completely wrong. People of all religions enjoy equal rights in Israel. There are Muslims, Christians, and others in government positions, in the police and army, judges, and in every other sector. Movement and transportation is not limited to anyone, especially not based on religion. Please don’t lie.
“In a 2007 report, U.N. Special Rapporteur for Palestine John Dugard wrote, “elements of the Israeli occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law” and suggested that the “legal consequences of a prolonged occupation with features of colonialism and apartheid” be put to the International Court of Justice.”
"On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International published a report, Israel’s Apartheid Against Palestinians: Cruel System of Domination and Crime Against Humanity, which stated that Israeli practices in Israel and the occupied territories equate to apartheid and that territorial fragmentation of the Palestinians ‘serves as a foundational element of the regime of oppression and domination’ "
this is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid
Another thing from this article is this; “Foreign governments who have used the word “apartheid” to describe the situation in Israel or in the Israeli-occupied territories include those of Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Nicaragua, North Korea, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela” I know that quoting this may be unsupportive to my argument at first, because I don’t like these countries at all, and I am not pro Hamas because I don’t want any religion to govern the rest anyway, but I think what one really can see in this is, that this topic is so polarized, that it’s very hard to find the truth and that is why I quoted the UN part
And here is the issue I described: https://www.france24.com/en/20190204-focus-israel-palestinian-territories-apartheid-road-highway-4370-jerusalem-segregation
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the Isreali government has a long and increasing history of systematic oppression of palestinian people, both inside and outside of the occupied palestinian territories. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
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This is definitely not true. If you are Palestinian you don’t have freedom of movement inside Palestine let alone freedom to enter Israel. They’re not all permanently barred (gotta let them in so they can work for Israel) but they’re not free.
You’re also not able to live in peace in Palestine. Settlers regularly come in and drive people out. Food, water. medical supplies, and more are tightly controlled by Israel.
There are non Jews who are Israel citizens, including some Palestinian people, but that’s a different story and those are not the people we’re talking about.
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That’s so ridiculously false that you’re either wholly ignorant about the reality of the notoriously discriminate ethnostate that is Israel or deliberately lying to further a false narrative.
Can I just say how nice it is that we can have multiple links in a comment and it doesn’t get automodded and silently hidden like on reddit?
You can, provided that I’m in turn allowed to wholeheartedly agree 😁
Let me just take the majority of your house, leaving you with only your bathroom, and then tell me how wanting me out is trying to invade my territory
That’s some top notch equivocation there. We’re not talking about whatever ethnicity you’re referring to as “Palestinian”; we’re talking about the people who live in Gaza and the West Bank, none of whom are granted any rights by Israel.
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There are far more ethnic Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank living in third world conditions, who are denied Israeli citizenship than there are Palestinian Israeli citizens, and even the ones with citizenship are subjected to a level of racism and state violence comparable to Black Americans in the Jim Crow south.
There are about 7 million Jews in Israel and about 2 million Arabs. (With like less than a million “others”? Something like that.) Palestine’s population has been declining (for some… mysterious reason…) but there are still about 5 million Palestinians.
It’s simply a question of the numbers: you can have a theocratic Jewish state of Israel or you can have a representative democracy that gives equal Rights to the Palestinians, but not both. Likud is a party of theocrats and they’ve all decided long ago which is more important to them.
They don’t want Israeli citizenship. That’s laughable that you’d even write that down.
Imagine being disliked because you’re sworn to murder the people who live next to you… shocking.