Wdym you want people to have principled opinions on cancel culture? We’re on the internet, here we doxx hold people accountable for the things we don’t like and complain when the wrong people face repercussions of their behavior outside their jobs
The paradox of tolerance suggests we draw a line and decide some things are unacceptable to tolerate or the tolerant will be overwhelmed by the intolerant. I’m sure Poppers arguments are not without flaws but absolute free speech is a pipe dream.
There are limits to free speech in US laws already, some common examples are slander, libel, and threats. There’s also “imminent lawless action” where words inciting violence can be restricted.
Maybe I’m drawing a false correlation between the two ideas but in general I don’t think it’s so black and white as you might suggest.
The paradox of tolerance is some philosopher’s idea, not some sort of axiom. We really need to stop quoting it. It’s not even the only idea of its kind. There are several philosophers with more nuanced takes.
Says who? It’s okay to agree or disagree with the dude, but citing him as if it’s a source or evidence of something is just plain wrong. And that’s how the paradox of tolerance is usually brought up.
I am more so arguing that in the pursuit of not tolerating the intolerant, we just end up becoming intolerant ourselves. That’s what Rawls argues.
But more specifically, defining and understanding what constitutes intolerance is a non-trivial challenge that is often ignored. Oftentimes, a person or view is labelled as intolerant when it does not see itself that way. Oftentimes, the reality is more nuanced.
For example, France’s ban on wearing religious symbols within schools can be seen as intolerant. That’s how I see it, at least. But others could argue that because the religions themselves are intolerant, this is completely permissible. The followers of these religions might not see themselves as intolerant. And this can keep going back and forth with each side calling the other intolerant.
If the paradox of tolerance is followed, everyone has free reign to condemn and suppress whomever they deem intolerant, just leading to more intolerance. Because there isn’t a way to prove that something or someone is objectively intolerant, it just leads to name calling.
You can see this kind of discourse online all the time. You go to a left leaning forum and find them calling the other side fascists. You go to a right leaning forum and find them calling the other side fascists as well. I’m not trying to “both sides” this, I’m trying to demonstrate that the paradox of tolerance isn’t actually helpful when it comes to decreasing intolerance.
I am more so arguing that in the pursuit of not tolerating the intolerant, we just end up becoming intolerant ourselves
Intolerance of intolerance is not the same thing as intolerance of tolerance. The former stops when other forms of intolerance no longer exist; the latter stops when tolerance no longer exists.
But more specifically, defining and understanding what constitutes intolerance is a non-trivial challenge that is often ignored. Oftentimes, a person or view is labelled as intolerant when it does not see itself that way. Oftentimes, the reality is more nuanced.
All we can do is give it our best try. It’s better than doing nothing at all out of fear that we can’t get everything perfectly right all the time. Intolerance definitionally seeks to destroy tolerance; thus it follows that if we do nothing, tolerance will be entirely lost.
You can see this kind of discourse online all the time. You go to a left leaning forum and find them calling the other side fascists. You go to a right leaning forum and find them calling the other side fascists as well.
The good news is that you don’t have to simply take people at their word when they say things. Humans have the unique capacity for judgement.
I’m trying to demonstrate that the paradox of tolerance isn’t actually helpful when it comes to decreasing intolerance.
I don’t agree, but even so, you haven’t proposed an alternative yet.
I did state that his argument was not without its flaws. It still serves its purpose as a thought experiment about how a society should handle radically dissenting opinions.
I won’t pretend to know the answer in practice and censorship makes me uneasy but my debate is against free speech absolutionists.
Because I don’t want to give some unelected bureaucrats the ability to discommunicate someone because they said something stupid. Public goods are meant to serve the public, even if they have bad opinions.
I think the limit should be pretty high, but I’m fine with, as an example, people who spread abject hatred being rejected by most parts of society. I think not spreading hatred against your fellows is an integral part of the social contract.
What if they did something racist outside of a work setting?
Wdym you want people to have principled opinions on cancel culture? We’re on the internet, here we
doxxhold people accountable for the things we don’t like and complain when the wrong people face repercussions of their behavior outside their jobsIn my day we did all our racism anonymously or down the pub, rather than online, under your real name, next to a photo of your real face.
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I’m going to make an ai video of you calling me a n***** and send it to your bosses.
See how this works? How do we even know it was her twerking?
https://www.wionews.com/technology/spain-minor-girls-fall-victim-to-deepfake-porn-ai-generated-nudes-shock-the-nation-638019
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No, why?
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences…
The paradox of tolerance suggests we draw a line and decide some things are unacceptable to tolerate or the tolerant will be overwhelmed by the intolerant. I’m sure Poppers arguments are not without flaws but absolute free speech is a pipe dream.
There are limits to free speech in US laws already, some common examples are slander, libel, and threats. There’s also “imminent lawless action” where words inciting violence can be restricted.
Maybe I’m drawing a false correlation between the two ideas but in general I don’t think it’s so black and white as you might suggest.
The paradox of tolerance is some philosopher’s idea, not some sort of axiom. We really need to stop quoting it. It’s not even the only idea of its kind. There are several philosophers with more nuanced takes.
The philosopher was correct. We should keep quoting it.
Says who? It’s okay to agree or disagree with the dude, but citing him as if it’s a source or evidence of something is just plain wrong. And that’s how the paradox of tolerance is usually brought up.
Wait, are you arguing with the concept that intolerance seeks to destroy tolerance?
I am more so arguing that in the pursuit of not tolerating the intolerant, we just end up becoming intolerant ourselves. That’s what Rawls argues.
But more specifically, defining and understanding what constitutes intolerance is a non-trivial challenge that is often ignored. Oftentimes, a person or view is labelled as intolerant when it does not see itself that way. Oftentimes, the reality is more nuanced.
For example, France’s ban on wearing religious symbols within schools can be seen as intolerant. That’s how I see it, at least. But others could argue that because the religions themselves are intolerant, this is completely permissible. The followers of these religions might not see themselves as intolerant. And this can keep going back and forth with each side calling the other intolerant.
If the paradox of tolerance is followed, everyone has free reign to condemn and suppress whomever they deem intolerant, just leading to more intolerance. Because there isn’t a way to prove that something or someone is objectively intolerant, it just leads to name calling.
You can see this kind of discourse online all the time. You go to a left leaning forum and find them calling the other side fascists. You go to a right leaning forum and find them calling the other side fascists as well. I’m not trying to “both sides” this, I’m trying to demonstrate that the paradox of tolerance isn’t actually helpful when it comes to decreasing intolerance.
Intolerance of intolerance is not the same thing as intolerance of tolerance. The former stops when other forms of intolerance no longer exist; the latter stops when tolerance no longer exists.
All we can do is give it our best try. It’s better than doing nothing at all out of fear that we can’t get everything perfectly right all the time. Intolerance definitionally seeks to destroy tolerance; thus it follows that if we do nothing, tolerance will be entirely lost.
The good news is that you don’t have to simply take people at their word when they say things. Humans have the unique capacity for judgement.
I don’t agree, but even so, you haven’t proposed an alternative yet.
I did state that his argument was not without its flaws. It still serves its purpose as a thought experiment about how a society should handle radically dissenting opinions.
I won’t pretend to know the answer in practice and censorship makes me uneasy but my debate is against free speech absolutionists.
Amoral isn’t a virtue worth upholding. We should encourage good things and discourage bad things.
I think having the freedom to express stupid opinions is actually a good thing
Good news, you have that freedom. But everybody else has the freedom to decide not to associate with you for it.
I don’t think public institutions should be able to make that call. Private institutions and individuals, sure.
Why not? Public institutions are supposed to serve the public’s interests.
Because I don’t want to give some unelected bureaucrats the ability to discommunicate someone because they said something stupid. Public goods are meant to serve the public, even if they have bad opinions.
I think the limit should be pretty high, but I’m fine with, as an example, people who spread abject hatred being rejected by most parts of society. I think not spreading hatred against your fellows is an integral part of the social contract.
based