Yeah sorry but I think the “modern day” part has an issue you identified here:
Israel was created as a solution to the problem that millions of Jews were homeless refugees after surviving the Holocaust.
Exactly. Israel was created without the consent of the people already living there, in the British Mandate of Palestine aka Palestine.
The Arabs could have welcomed them, worked out two-state solution with mutual economic interests and good trade relations. Instead they absolutely refused to give up anything to these poor folks
Imagine that Russia renames Crimea and declares it an independent country. Should Ukraine accept the “two state solution”? You cannot brush over the fundamental history of what happened.
You’re right, it is a modern issue, and this is it. It is not accepted by the people who were already living there and it never has been.
Of course in practice I don’t think anyone should be removed from their homes. The solution to this problem shouldn’t be more atrocities. But when we lose sight of the fundamental cause of the issue it’s easy to create this narrative like you just did that people should have welcomed the colonial creation with open arms, even after people were driven from their homes in the nakba and have never been able to return.
It was created with the consent of the sovereign power that controlled the territory. You don’t like that the British controlled the territory, take it up with them. Not Israel’s problem.
I am British and no, I do not like what the British did.
I just think it’s relevant 🤷♂️ obviously you don’t.
Again I would say the Russia / Crimea example is valid. If they (the sovereign power that controls the territory) created a new state there should Ukrainians accept it? Would you?
The difference is that in your scenario, there is a realistic path towards Ukraine getting is territory back.
In Israel, there is NO realistic path towards them EVER getting territory back from Israel.
So the question is, do you then let go of the past, and you’re hatred for the enemy, and focus on giving your kids a future will the possibility of prosperity under a new normal?
So if Russia had better equipment, training, army etc, on par with the US for example, so there was no realistic way they would ever get it back, or if other countries weren’t giving as much aid, then they should just accept the “two state solution”? Do you really think that?
In Israel, there is NO realistic path towards them EVER getting territory back from Israel.
Also I don’t really agree with this framing. Perhaps it’s not likely but Israel could acknowledge that people have been removed from their homes and allow Palestinians back into their towns with equal rights. Super easily. They could remove illegal settlements. Etc etc etc. These things are choices that it is totally possible for any compassionate human in a position of power to make.
I agree that this is not going to happen (lacking a compassionate human with sufficient power, maybe) but let’s not pretend such a thing is impossible.
Yes, I really, truly believe that if my choice was smaller country, with sovereignty, vs an unwinnable war with an overpowering force, I would ABSOLUTELY make peace so that my kid could grow up in a world with a chance of prospering.
Then the bullies get their way and everybody else just has to deal with it. It just doesn’t sit well with me.
They are the ones with the power to stop this and they are the ones who choose not to. I blame people fighting to be able to oppress others much more than I blame people wanting to fight for their freedom.
Yeah sorry but I think the “modern day” part has an issue you identified here:
Exactly. Israel was created without the consent of the people already living there, in the British Mandate of Palestine aka Palestine.
Imagine that Russia renames Crimea and declares it an independent country. Should Ukraine accept the “two state solution”? You cannot brush over the fundamental history of what happened.
You’re right, it is a modern issue, and this is it. It is not accepted by the people who were already living there and it never has been.
Of course in practice I don’t think anyone should be removed from their homes. The solution to this problem shouldn’t be more atrocities. But when we lose sight of the fundamental cause of the issue it’s easy to create this narrative like you just did that people should have welcomed the colonial creation with open arms, even after people were driven from their homes in the nakba and have never been able to return.
It was created with the consent of the sovereign power that controlled the territory. You don’t like that the British controlled the territory, take it up with them. Not Israel’s problem.
I am British and no, I do not like what the British did.
I just think it’s relevant 🤷♂️ obviously you don’t.
Again I would say the Russia / Crimea example is valid. If they (the sovereign power that controls the territory) created a new state there should Ukrainians accept it? Would you?
The difference is that in your scenario, there is a realistic path towards Ukraine getting is territory back.
In Israel, there is NO realistic path towards them EVER getting territory back from Israel.
So the question is, do you then let go of the past, and you’re hatred for the enemy, and focus on giving your kids a future will the possibility of prosperity under a new normal?
For me, that would be a yes.
So if Russia had better equipment, training, army etc, on par with the US for example, so there was no realistic way they would ever get it back, or if other countries weren’t giving as much aid, then they should just accept the “two state solution”? Do you really think that?
Also I don’t really agree with this framing. Perhaps it’s not likely but Israel could acknowledge that people have been removed from their homes and allow Palestinians back into their towns with equal rights. Super easily. They could remove illegal settlements. Etc etc etc. These things are choices that it is totally possible for any compassionate human in a position of power to make.
I agree that this is not going to happen (lacking a compassionate human with sufficient power, maybe) but let’s not pretend such a thing is impossible.
Yes, I really, truly believe that if my choice was smaller country, with sovereignty, vs an unwinnable war with an overpowering force, I would ABSOLUTELY make peace so that my kid could grow up in a world with a chance of prospering.
It’s not even a hard decision.
Then the bullies get their way and everybody else just has to deal with it. It just doesn’t sit well with me.
They are the ones with the power to stop this and they are the ones who choose not to. I blame people fighting to be able to oppress others much more than I blame people wanting to fight for their freedom.
Congratulations, you’ve just discovered how national sovereignty works, and how it’s always worked.
And you seem to think injustices are fine if there is a loosely-defined set of norms backing it up. Thanks for the chat