Again, I get where you’re coming from, but this is how America ended up with Trump. Many people were convinced to stay home and ‘not vote’ for Clinton. Biden, Starmer, whichever politician you want to smear as being ‘complicit in genocide’ is being quite vocal in calls for aid and a ceasefire. The reality doesn’t match with how you’re allowing people to paint it for you.
Now more than ever, we all need to make a concerted effort not to be lead by our feels. Burned babies and tortured civvies are enraging. Cutting off water / supplies / energy is enraging. Tieing a group of children together and setting them on fire is enraging. Bombing Gaza is enraging. The hard-right Israeli government AND the Islamic fundies want us to be enraged because that’s when we make rash judgements and allow the situation to become further enflamed.
Your voice is stronger from the inside than sitting with tape over your mouth in your house. Imo.
Point me to an article where America has officially called for a cease fire. There’s protests across the country calling for but we’re passing multi-billion “aid” packages to Israel, which already has enough arms to fight this “war” ten times over.
Democrats snubbed Bernie in 2016 in favor of Hillary and fucked its voter base which cost them and us their supporters the elections and unleashed 4 years of hell on this country.
Again, I get your point, and I’m stating that there’s limits to bullshit especially when it’s coming out of our paychecks.
And here’s the counter and complicity of America. The fucking nerve of us to “open up humanitarian corridors”:
Democrats snubbed Bernie in 2016 in favor of Hillary and fucked its voter base which cost them and us their supporters the elections and unleashed 4 years of hell on this country
Agreed. But, after that happened, you had an unpalatable choice between ‘holding your nose’ to vote for a candidate who wasn’t fucking insane, or staying home. That might not be the choice you wanted but it’s still a choice that enabled the election of Trump.
You’re right, I cannot find any recent articles of Biden personally calling for ceasefire (though I can find historical articles of him calling for ceasefires last time this conflict flared up). I can however find lots and lots of articles re progressive dems calling for ceasefire and putting pressure on him to do likewise. This is what I meant by ‘stronger voice from inside’. You have no voice on the outside.
I think we’re talking past each other. Elected representatives, including Biden, are servants of the people. Their job is to represent the will of the people. Democrats should have been held accountable for Trump, as much as Trump is being held accountable, rightfully so, for all of his fuck-ups.
Justice should be served equally, regardless of party or affiliation. We cannot let our elected representatives get away with mea culpas of such massive proportions every single time.
I did vote for Biden in 2020 and would have voted again for him in 2024, had he not pulled this bullshit and played with human life in a bid to save his popularity at home and/or upset the status quo.
Not voting for either party is as powerful a message as a vote since each vote is counted and voter turnout is a very telling sign. It demonstrates that the party needs to do better to understand the needs of the people putting them in power. We don’t HAVE to choose between two shit options, we can instead send a message that the party needs to do better and listen to it’s base and form policies in line with them to preserve their precious seats otherwise they risk losing their position and have to fight for it all over again. If they don’t like it, great, some other candidate from the party will be sure to unseat them.
I get your point about change from the inside, but here’s what happened with people that tried it this time as American was bending over backwards for Israel:
There’s only 13 officials drafting up a bill that calls for a ceasefire. 13. There isn’t going to be a Gaza left in a month’s time and we would have ethnically cleansed it all by them.
The reason why it’s close to home is because I have Palestinian friends that are looking at pictures of their ancestral homes completely demolished in Gaza. Go to Al Jazeera and scroll their feed for a bit to see pictures of dead children and tell me that I still need to vote and partake in the circus that is our political system right now.
Edit: To add, elected officials getting away with bullshit,“because you have to choose between two shit choices” is the exact kind of complacent/negligent bs I’m not ok with. It also enables an elected official to do whatever they want by holding us hostage to a shitty choice and that is not ok. Look at how democrats lined up when Trump was in power because they fucked up and they knew it. Let them feel like they fucked up now if the country and worldwide protests calling for ceasefire aren’t enough.
Sorry if it’s devolved to that! It’s not me downvoting your replies btw. As far as I’m concerned this is an interesting conversation not an argument, we both clearly feel strongly / passionately about our viewpoint and imo are being fairly cogent / non-combative with each other.
Re Al Jazeera, I’ve found their reporting difficult to trust for a while, and their current reporting imo is very strongly biased against Israel. EG the hospital blast, which many indie sources are now saying is almost certainly not due to an IDF strike (which they still haven’t retracted), or the ‘church destroyed’ which turned out to be a compound that Hamas had setup in next door, with one church wall being destroyed (and obv the compound next door). Though it begs the question, where can we turn right now for genuinely independant reporting on this? Israeli sources are going to slant heavily towards Israel / IDF, Palestinian sources are going to slant heavily towards Palestine / Hamas. Which goes back to my earlier point about taking a breath and trying, somehow, to remain objective in the face of rage-inducing content.
Not voting for either party is as powerful a message as a vote since each vote is counted and voter turnout is a very telling sign
Not sure exactly how it works in USA compared to UK, but I encourage everyone who genuinely doesn’t want to vote (I say genuinely because many simply can’t be bothered to engage, which I also understand when people are fatigued after a hard day’s work) to spoil their ballot rather than not voting. That way your non-engagement is directly observed and counted. Though ensure you do it properly, one guy here last election drew a dick on the ballot paper, but because the helmet strayed into a box, that was taken as his vote.
No apologies needed! :-) This has indeed been an interesting debate and really I commend you for trying to reason with me. Keep doing that!
Al Jazeera definitely has an Anti-Israel slant, but so far their reports have been corroborated by places such as the Intercept and Guardian (to an extent) and the BBC, again to an extent where the sites have bothered to cover the other side. I also keep checking these other sources just so I’m forming my own views instead of drinking from the firehose of a news outlet.
So far, anybody that’s investigated the hospital attack has been a party sanctioned by the Israeli Gov or the US. We’ve yet to see an independent UN backed source go in there and figure out what happened. Israel has also blocked off media and created a complete siege and are now banning Al Jazeera altogether after killing their reporter last year and another Reuters reporter this time. They are also the primary source of info unless a news agency sends their reporters in at peril to the region. They’ve taken more steps to hide things and have precedent in launching attacks such as these, not just in this conflict, which again have been back by first hand people from the region and then corroborated by various news agencies in the past.
Historically, they’ve got a lot more blood on their hands. I also hold them to a higher standard similar to the US and Europe, because they have the bigger stick and with power comes responsibility. This is why I might appear harsh, but I wish nothing but peace for the people of Israel and hope the people that have lost their loved ones find some solace.
Hamas is not the answer for Palestine and peace is the only way forward which begins with a cease fire in my view. It’s hard to criticize their choices in political leadership when they’ve been oppressed for the past 75yrs. That doesn’t mean complicit parties shouldn’t be held accountable and tried.
Anyway, point taken about sending in the ballot. I’m probably going to be writing to my state senator along with Biden’s office and doing my part that way, so my lack of engagement isn’t an actual lack of engagement but a protest. Best of luck to you and have a good one.
Again, I get where you’re coming from, but this is how America ended up with Trump. Many people were convinced to stay home and ‘not vote’ for Clinton. Biden, Starmer, whichever politician you want to smear as being ‘complicit in genocide’ is being quite vocal in calls for aid and a ceasefire. The reality doesn’t match with how you’re allowing people to paint it for you.
Now more than ever, we all need to make a concerted effort not to be lead by our feels. Burned babies and tortured civvies are enraging. Cutting off water / supplies / energy is enraging. Tieing a group of children together and setting them on fire is enraging. Bombing Gaza is enraging. The hard-right Israeli government AND the Islamic fundies want us to be enraged because that’s when we make rash judgements and allow the situation to become further enflamed.
Your voice is stronger from the inside than sitting with tape over your mouth in your house. Imo.
Point me to an article where America has officially called for a cease fire. There’s protests across the country calling for but we’re passing multi-billion “aid” packages to Israel, which already has enough arms to fight this “war” ten times over.
Democrats snubbed Bernie in 2016 in favor of Hillary and fucked its voter base which cost them and us their supporters the elections and unleashed 4 years of hell on this country.
Again, I get your point, and I’m stating that there’s limits to bullshit especially when it’s coming out of our paychecks.
And here’s the counter and complicity of America. The fucking nerve of us to “open up humanitarian corridors”:
https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142507
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/10/18/biden-visits-israel-and-reaffirms-support-for-war-in-gaza
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/biden-asks-us-congress-for-105bn-in-assistance-for-israel-and-ukraine
Agreed. But, after that happened, you had an unpalatable choice between ‘holding your nose’ to vote for a candidate who wasn’t fucking insane, or staying home. That might not be the choice you wanted but it’s still a choice that enabled the election of Trump.
You’re right, I cannot find any recent articles of Biden personally calling for ceasefire (though I can find historical articles of him calling for ceasefires last time this conflict flared up). I can however find lots and lots of articles re progressive dems calling for ceasefire and putting pressure on him to do likewise. This is what I meant by ‘stronger voice from inside’. You have no voice on the outside.
I think we’re talking past each other. Elected representatives, including Biden, are servants of the people. Their job is to represent the will of the people. Democrats should have been held accountable for Trump, as much as Trump is being held accountable, rightfully so, for all of his fuck-ups.
Justice should be served equally, regardless of party or affiliation. We cannot let our elected representatives get away with mea culpas of such massive proportions every single time.
I did vote for Biden in 2020 and would have voted again for him in 2024, had he not pulled this bullshit and played with human life in a bid to save his popularity at home and/or upset the status quo.
Not voting for either party is as powerful a message as a vote since each vote is counted and voter turnout is a very telling sign. It demonstrates that the party needs to do better to understand the needs of the people putting them in power. We don’t HAVE to choose between two shit options, we can instead send a message that the party needs to do better and listen to it’s base and form policies in line with them to preserve their precious seats otherwise they risk losing their position and have to fight for it all over again. If they don’t like it, great, some other candidate from the party will be sure to unseat them.
I get your point about change from the inside, but here’s what happened with people that tried it this time as American was bending over backwards for Israel:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/state-department-resignation-gaza_n_65306079e4b00565b622b1fb
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/biden-administration-gaza-dissent_n_652f42b0e4b0da897ab5c8a6
There’s only 13 officials drafting up a bill that calls for a ceasefire. 13. There isn’t going to be a Gaza left in a month’s time and we would have ethnically cleansed it all by them.
The reason why it’s close to home is because I have Palestinian friends that are looking at pictures of their ancestral homes completely demolished in Gaza. Go to Al Jazeera and scroll their feed for a bit to see pictures of dead children and tell me that I still need to vote and partake in the circus that is our political system right now.
Edit: To add, elected officials getting away with bullshit,“because you have to choose between two shit choices” is the exact kind of complacent/negligent bs I’m not ok with. It also enables an elected official to do whatever they want by holding us hostage to a shitty choice and that is not ok. Look at how democrats lined up when Trump was in power because they fucked up and they knew it. Let them feel like they fucked up now if the country and worldwide protests calling for ceasefire aren’t enough.
Sorry if it’s devolved to that! It’s not me downvoting your replies btw. As far as I’m concerned this is an interesting conversation not an argument, we both clearly feel strongly / passionately about our viewpoint and imo are being fairly cogent / non-combative with each other.
Re Al Jazeera, I’ve found their reporting difficult to trust for a while, and their current reporting imo is very strongly biased against Israel. EG the hospital blast, which many indie sources are now saying is almost certainly not due to an IDF strike (which they still haven’t retracted), or the ‘church destroyed’ which turned out to be a compound that Hamas had setup in next door, with one church wall being destroyed (and obv the compound next door). Though it begs the question, where can we turn right now for genuinely independant reporting on this? Israeli sources are going to slant heavily towards Israel / IDF, Palestinian sources are going to slant heavily towards Palestine / Hamas. Which goes back to my earlier point about taking a breath and trying, somehow, to remain objective in the face of rage-inducing content.
Not sure exactly how it works in USA compared to UK, but I encourage everyone who genuinely doesn’t want to vote (I say genuinely because many simply can’t be bothered to engage, which I also understand when people are fatigued after a hard day’s work) to spoil their ballot rather than not voting. That way your non-engagement is directly observed and counted. Though ensure you do it properly, one guy here last election drew a dick on the ballot paper, but because the helmet strayed into a box, that was taken as his vote.
No apologies needed! :-) This has indeed been an interesting debate and really I commend you for trying to reason with me. Keep doing that!
Al Jazeera definitely has an Anti-Israel slant, but so far their reports have been corroborated by places such as the Intercept and Guardian (to an extent) and the BBC, again to an extent where the sites have bothered to cover the other side. I also keep checking these other sources just so I’m forming my own views instead of drinking from the firehose of a news outlet.
So far, anybody that’s investigated the hospital attack has been a party sanctioned by the Israeli Gov or the US. We’ve yet to see an independent UN backed source go in there and figure out what happened. Israel has also blocked off media and created a complete siege and are now banning Al Jazeera altogether after killing their reporter last year and another Reuters reporter this time. They are also the primary source of info unless a news agency sends their reporters in at peril to the region. They’ve taken more steps to hide things and have precedent in launching attacks such as these, not just in this conflict, which again have been back by first hand people from the region and then corroborated by various news agencies in the past.
Historically, they’ve got a lot more blood on their hands. I also hold them to a higher standard similar to the US and Europe, because they have the bigger stick and with power comes responsibility. This is why I might appear harsh, but I wish nothing but peace for the people of Israel and hope the people that have lost their loved ones find some solace.
Hamas is not the answer for Palestine and peace is the only way forward which begins with a cease fire in my view. It’s hard to criticize their choices in political leadership when they’ve been oppressed for the past 75yrs. That doesn’t mean complicit parties shouldn’t be held accountable and tried.
Anyway, point taken about sending in the ballot. I’m probably going to be writing to my state senator along with Biden’s office and doing my part that way, so my lack of engagement isn’t an actual lack of engagement but a protest. Best of luck to you and have a good one.