I wasn’t going to talk in this thread any more because it typically devolves into what most of the rest of this comment section looks like with stubborness from both sides, but you seem to be quite reasonable. Please understand I’m going to talk to you in good faith, with an open mind, and I have to desire to stir things up or make fun of you or anything. I like to discuss these things, but it feels very difficult to find people with nuance, especially online. But I hope we can have a polite discussion.
The way I see it suffering and death of sentient beings should be minimised as much as practicable and possible.
Absolutely agree with you. I think anyone who doesn’t feel this way is someone I don’t want to associate with.
More plants are needed to produce meat (as feed) than to produce plant based food directly.
Yup, this is well established scientific fact.
So even if crop production kills mice etc it is more ethical to eat plants than to eat produced meat.
As a non-vegan, this is one place I get kinda confused trying to see things from your point of view. Like I told the other guy, if I hunt 1 deer, I know I only hurt a single organism. I dont get any thrill out of it, I basically see it as part of Mother Nature’s grocery store. It’s a chore I don’t hate, but I see it more like a job than a hobby.
But nobody can measure what the true eco impact of modern massive farming is. Even the best consumer will never know where most of their food came from. We can’t tell what land damage was done, what species were impacted by how much, how much chemicals were used and what kinds, etc. Mechanized farming mows down anything in its path. Rabbits, moles, voles, birds, snakes, frogs, salamanders, racoons, possums, etc. The chemicals burn animal’s feet and kill our pollinators and spiders, runoff kills fish and other aquatic animals. I like a lot of animals people don’t typically like. Slimey ones, scaly ones, creepy crawlies, and so on. So why is hurting a mystery number of miscellaneous things automatically less bad? My issue is Big Ag and the systems that support it, not the vegans and vegetarians. We all eat, and there is a cost of lives no matter what we eat. But as I said, I can say my cost was one single thing. I’m fully aware of it, but I am thankful and respectful as I can possibly be for it. I just feel neither of us can make a claim of moral superiority over the other because we don’t have both sides of the equation to balance it out.
Moreover, the purpose of producing plant based food is not to willfully breed animals into a life of suffering and death. Deaths as a result of crop production is not the goal of crop production. It is a side effect that we can minimise.
Again, I feel we’re both in agreement modern mass farming is our real opponent, not each other. If we all had personal garden plots that fed our families, I feel that would solve a lot of these issues for both sides of these vegan vs omnivore discussions. We’ve gotten away from that kind of life as a society, and I don’t think that was one of mankind’s best decisions. Those like us that try to source the least destructive meals possible put a lot of trust into who we get food from.
I primarily eat grains and beans/lentils. I love the heck out of nearly all grains. I got some killer recipes for beans and lentils. I love tofu and seitan and falafel and Beyond burgers and sausages. But I also love paneer and butter and honey and yes, meat and seafood. I also think for some purposes, wool or leather are the best available materials to make certain things out of. If something else was better, I’d pick that first. But I try to keep learning about new synthetic materials and finding recipes that don’t always call for animal products. I use much less now than how I was raised. What I do use, I try my best to get this from more responsible sources. I don’t want to cause any unnecessary harm.
What does the world do with domesticated animals if there is no longer a need for them? They can’t live on their own anymore (except pigs, those are some terrifying creatures given the right circumstances) so so we just let them eventually die out? It seems odd and irresponsible that we’ve turned them into what they are, but we’d let them fade away. Raising livestock isn’t cheap or easy, but if it’s not a viable commercial product, who will invest that time and energy into them? And in addition to the cows and chickens and all that, why are domestic dogs and cats ok? I’ve had many pets, but after losing my last hound dog, I just can’t deal with losing another domestic animal. I don’t feel pets are right anymore. I’m not judging other people if they do have pets, but it feels like you guys are against keeping other animals in those kinds of situations, so why are pets different? I just stick to watching the animals in my backyard now. I’ll toss them some peanuts, which I know isn’t supposed to be good for them either, but they like them, and they’re free to do as they please.
However, it is still taking a sentient life against its will. And it is not necessary.
I saved this for last because to a certain extent I agree. From a food standpoint, I agree with you. I could give up all animal protein and be fine, as could near anyone else. But from a conservation perspective, I am going to politely disagree, and I feel killing a well regulated number of wild animals is a necessity.
People have done a number on this planet in so many ways. We’ve screwed with every ecosystem from North to South Pole and the balance that is supposed to exists does not. I’m only going to touch on the 2 animals in most familiar with two keep from spouting BS.
Deer populations do get out of hand very quickly. If you aren’t from the country and see them as majestic creatures, you have not seen how destructive large numbers of deer can be. From crop damage to landscape destruction, to just plain getting hit by cars, unregulated deer populations are not a joke.
Hunting is managed by a number of agencies. They don’t just say ok fellas, start shooting. They study all the animals all year long, determine how the populations should be adjusted, and issue that many licenses. Next year, the will adjust the number depending how their goals were met. It’s well planned by conservationists, not some Elmer Fudd free for all. People are paying to do a government job, and that money goes into more environmental programs. Some killing is done, but it’s to make a greater good for the wildlife as a whole.
The other animal I’ll talk about, which makes me very sad because it is illegal to possess any part of it, so there’s not even an upside to killing them, is owls. What people have done to old growth forests is a nightmare for a lot of species. Old trees CANNOT be replaced by new ones. That is a whole other topic.
Thousands of Barred Owls are killed by wildlife agencies every year for the last few decades. Barred Owls are amazing and beautiful creatures. But they also kill other owls. Environmental destruction has pushed them into places they didn’t used to be, and they are killing off very endangered owl species.
This article really is captures the dilemma conservationists face. There is no other practical way to stop invasive species. They’ve tried it all. I love all the animals, but owls are one of my favorites. Check my posts, I post about owls and their protection literally every day. But we need to kill some to try to undo the mess we’ve made of our planet. I hope to heck someday that isn’t true, but it is right now.
Well, this was way more than I intended to write, but I’m kinda stressed out today and it seems this helped me work some of my anxiety out. I hope you felt I’ve been respectful and genuine with you. I could talk about this stuff all day, I’m very passionate about it. Like everything else related to people, there’s miles of grey area, and compromises to be made from all perspectives. By thinking critically about the choices we make, we’re both working to be more responsible members of this place we share with our fellow creatures.
We won’t always see eye to eye, and that’s ok. I’ll keep working to understand your point of view, and even if you will never agree on hunting, I hope you read that owl article and can take something away from that about the heavy responsibility that comes with protecting animals. It doesn’t sound like a role you would want to play personally, and I respect that. But I hope you can see that it’s a responsibility I have chosen to accept. I do feel it’s for a greater good.
If you think I’m full of it, you’re welcome to think that, I just ask if that’s how you feel, let’s just both drop this conversation. But I hope I helped you understand a different viewpoint at least a little, and if you want to talk about anything more, we can.
I first have to say that I really appreciate your tone and your thought out arguments. Most of these types of discussions tend to devolve into non-constructive obstinacy.
And this particular area is a very grey and complex one, so I admit it is not completely black or white for me. And these are big issues that we humans honestly will most likely not solve in any way that either of us would be happy with.
I agree with you on many points, like you have pointed out. You seem to be compassionate, empathetic, and rational.
As a non-vegan, this is one place I get kinda confused trying to see things from your point of view. Like I told the other guy, if I hunt 1 deer, I know I only hurt a single organism. I dont get any thrill out of it, I basically see it as part of Mother Nature’s grocery store. It’s a chore I don’t hate, but I see it more like a job than a hobby.
I think this comes into where I believe our disagreement is. We mostly align in the utlitiarian aspects (I’m not really utilitarian, but I’ll get to that), but we differ in the aspect of commodification. I.e. I do not think we should see sentient beings as commodities. For example, I would not eat an animal who died in an accident. I assume, for instance, that you would not eat your dog if it died in a car crash, and I extend that reasoning to other animals as well.
Again, I feel we’re both in agreement modern mass farming is our real opponent, not each other. If we all had personal garden plots that fed our families, I feel that would solve a lot of these issues for both sides of these vegan vs omnivore discussions.
Completely agree. The optimal approach in my opinion would be to reduce the impact of farming in general, but at the same time not see animals as commodities. Also, even if I would view hunting as a viable way of reducing suffering (which one can argue from a utilitarian standpoint, but I personally don’t for other reasons), we cannot sustain our population on hunting alone. Similarly I think we can’t have a functioning society like we do today with only small scale food production. We would need to either make bigger changes in the societal structure (not very likely), or we need to optimise farming with regards to environmental impact and “collateral damage” (more likely, but still difficult).
What does the world do with domesticated animals if there is no longer a need for them?
This is a hypothetical non-issue in my honest opinion. There is no likely scenario where the entire planet would turn vegan over night. Also, it is not an argument for continuing breeding animals into suffering and death. If anything it is an argument for stopping all of it after this generation of farm animals.
Also, my personal view (even if perhaps not all vegans agree) is to be non-interventionistic. I.e. I don’t think we are gods (like some other commenter said here before) who have a responsibility of maintaining nature at some arbitrary point that we think is the desired status quo. I simply think we should not unnecessarily cause harm, suffering, and death in our daily lives. As far as practicable and possible of course.
Raising livestock isn’t cheap or easy, but if it’s not a viable commercial product, who will invest that time and energy into them?
Two things. First, virtually all animal food industry today is heavily subsidised and it would not exist without those subsidies. Second, I don’t think we should breed animals into existence just so that they can exist. This is also another opinion that is perhaps not too common amongst all vegans, and it is a bit of a tangent. But I am somewhat of an anti-natalist, both with human and non-human animals. No one can suffer if they haven’t lived. And there is no reason to making beings exist just for the sake of existing. And if that existence is prolonged suffering ending with execution, it does not make sense to say that it is justified.
That owl article was interesting! But I think it is quite absurd in a way that we have fucked up nature so much that we think we should kill a bunch of animals as an attempt to unfuck it.
I hope you felt I’ve been respectful and genuine with you.
You have been very respectful, it is very rare to meet someone online with such a respectful and understanding tone when you are discussing differing opinions! I hope I haven’t been too preachy, I also just want you to understand my view.
I can highly recommend this video by Ed Winters. I agree with a lot of his opinions, and he is much more well-spoken and good at explaining arguments than I am.
You have been very awesome in this, and I feel this type of interaction is much more constructive and productive than a lot of what has gone on in a lot of these other comments. In talking with some other more angry vegans in the past, I get it’s tiring to take the effort making responses that are really involved like this only to find out the non-vegan taking to you was being disingenuous the whole time or looking to try to catch you doing something non-vegan or whatever stupid point they’re trying to make. But I’m glad we took a chance talking to each other. It’s hard to sit here and type everything out, and I wish more in person conversations went this way.
We mostly align in the utlitiarian aspects (I’m not really utilitarian, but I’ll get to that), but we differ in the aspect of commodification.
I think this is a fair assessment. It’s a bit more nuanced for me, but that I feel is pretty fair for your average person. Most people are removed from farm type animals in their daily lives and don’t really make that connection that a hamburger was once chilling in the sun eating grass having a great time. I do think about that though, and it’s what has led to me trending your direction food-wise.
We cannot sustain our population on hunting alone.
Absolutely. Human population didn’t take off until we learned to become farmers. It’s what made us civilized in a literal and modern sense. And with the whole energy pyramid it definitely makes the most sense. I love the developments going on with genetically altered grains that provide better vitam it n content and the tech bringing us lab synthesized proteins that capture the textures and sometimes tastes of meat and can’t wait for them to scale. I probably love the taste of Beyond more than any meat. It is just way too expensive still, and could stand to be a bit healthier. If price and nutrition parity was there, you’d have me vegan instantly.
There is no likely scenario where the entire planet would turn vegan over night. Also, it is not an argument for continuing breeding animals into suffering and death.
Yes, it’s more a thought experiment I give myself. Not intended to be a straw man argument but it could be seen and probably is used by many in that way.
As for interventionism, we could argue that we don’t know enough and just make matters worse. There are definitely real life cases of that. But I do feel we as a whole should be stewards of our planet. We did make most of these problems and should try to fix them, but many will likely take hundreds of years or more to fix realistically.
Second, I don’t think we should breed animals into existence just so that they can exist.
That is a lot of the root of my feelings of personal and societal responsibility. It’s too late to not do these things, and I feel the just thing to do is own our actions and to do what we can for the world we’ve created. Nothing wrong with your opinions on that though.
I’ll be sure to check out Ed Winters. I’m always looking to get a fresh perspective on things and grow as a person.
Thank you again for taking this time with me. More people should do the same. I feel a great respect for you and your beliefs. You’re definitely someone I would enjoy having regular friendly chats with.
I wasn’t going to talk in this thread any more because it typically devolves into what most of the rest of this comment section looks like with stubborness from both sides, but you seem to be quite reasonable. Please understand I’m going to talk to you in good faith, with an open mind, and I have to desire to stir things up or make fun of you or anything. I like to discuss these things, but it feels very difficult to find people with nuance, especially online. But I hope we can have a polite discussion.
Absolutely agree with you. I think anyone who doesn’t feel this way is someone I don’t want to associate with.
Yup, this is well established scientific fact.
As a non-vegan, this is one place I get kinda confused trying to see things from your point of view. Like I told the other guy, if I hunt 1 deer, I know I only hurt a single organism. I dont get any thrill out of it, I basically see it as part of Mother Nature’s grocery store. It’s a chore I don’t hate, but I see it more like a job than a hobby.
But nobody can measure what the true eco impact of modern massive farming is. Even the best consumer will never know where most of their food came from. We can’t tell what land damage was done, what species were impacted by how much, how much chemicals were used and what kinds, etc. Mechanized farming mows down anything in its path. Rabbits, moles, voles, birds, snakes, frogs, salamanders, racoons, possums, etc. The chemicals burn animal’s feet and kill our pollinators and spiders, runoff kills fish and other aquatic animals. I like a lot of animals people don’t typically like. Slimey ones, scaly ones, creepy crawlies, and so on. So why is hurting a mystery number of miscellaneous things automatically less bad? My issue is Big Ag and the systems that support it, not the vegans and vegetarians. We all eat, and there is a cost of lives no matter what we eat. But as I said, I can say my cost was one single thing. I’m fully aware of it, but I am thankful and respectful as I can possibly be for it. I just feel neither of us can make a claim of moral superiority over the other because we don’t have both sides of the equation to balance it out.
Again, I feel we’re both in agreement modern mass farming is our real opponent, not each other. If we all had personal garden plots that fed our families, I feel that would solve a lot of these issues for both sides of these vegan vs omnivore discussions. We’ve gotten away from that kind of life as a society, and I don’t think that was one of mankind’s best decisions. Those like us that try to source the least destructive meals possible put a lot of trust into who we get food from.
I primarily eat grains and beans/lentils. I love the heck out of nearly all grains. I got some killer recipes for beans and lentils. I love tofu and seitan and falafel and Beyond burgers and sausages. But I also love paneer and butter and honey and yes, meat and seafood. I also think for some purposes, wool or leather are the best available materials to make certain things out of. If something else was better, I’d pick that first. But I try to keep learning about new synthetic materials and finding recipes that don’t always call for animal products. I use much less now than how I was raised. What I do use, I try my best to get this from more responsible sources. I don’t want to cause any unnecessary harm.
What does the world do with domesticated animals if there is no longer a need for them? They can’t live on their own anymore (except pigs, those are some terrifying creatures given the right circumstances) so so we just let them eventually die out? It seems odd and irresponsible that we’ve turned them into what they are, but we’d let them fade away. Raising livestock isn’t cheap or easy, but if it’s not a viable commercial product, who will invest that time and energy into them? And in addition to the cows and chickens and all that, why are domestic dogs and cats ok? I’ve had many pets, but after losing my last hound dog, I just can’t deal with losing another domestic animal. I don’t feel pets are right anymore. I’m not judging other people if they do have pets, but it feels like you guys are against keeping other animals in those kinds of situations, so why are pets different? I just stick to watching the animals in my backyard now. I’ll toss them some peanuts, which I know isn’t supposed to be good for them either, but they like them, and they’re free to do as they please.
I saved this for last because to a certain extent I agree. From a food standpoint, I agree with you. I could give up all animal protein and be fine, as could near anyone else. But from a conservation perspective, I am going to politely disagree, and I feel killing a well regulated number of wild animals is a necessity.
People have done a number on this planet in so many ways. We’ve screwed with every ecosystem from North to South Pole and the balance that is supposed to exists does not. I’m only going to touch on the 2 animals in most familiar with two keep from spouting BS.
Deer populations do get out of hand very quickly. If you aren’t from the country and see them as majestic creatures, you have not seen how destructive large numbers of deer can be. From crop damage to landscape destruction, to just plain getting hit by cars, unregulated deer populations are not a joke.
Hunting is managed by a number of agencies. They don’t just say ok fellas, start shooting. They study all the animals all year long, determine how the populations should be adjusted, and issue that many licenses. Next year, the will adjust the number depending how their goals were met. It’s well planned by conservationists, not some Elmer Fudd free for all. People are paying to do a government job, and that money goes into more environmental programs. Some killing is done, but it’s to make a greater good for the wildlife as a whole.
The other animal I’ll talk about, which makes me very sad because it is illegal to possess any part of it, so there’s not even an upside to killing them, is owls. What people have done to old growth forests is a nightmare for a lot of species. Old trees CANNOT be replaced by new ones. That is a whole other topic.
Thousands of Barred Owls are killed by wildlife agencies every year for the last few decades. Barred Owls are amazing and beautiful creatures. But they also kill other owls. Environmental destruction has pushed them into places they didn’t used to be, and they are killing off very endangered owl species.
NPR: To Save Threatened Owl, Another Species Is Shot
This article really is captures the dilemma conservationists face. There is no other practical way to stop invasive species. They’ve tried it all. I love all the animals, but owls are one of my favorites. Check my posts, I post about owls and their protection literally every day. But we need to kill some to try to undo the mess we’ve made of our planet. I hope to heck someday that isn’t true, but it is right now.
Well, this was way more than I intended to write, but I’m kinda stressed out today and it seems this helped me work some of my anxiety out. I hope you felt I’ve been respectful and genuine with you. I could talk about this stuff all day, I’m very passionate about it. Like everything else related to people, there’s miles of grey area, and compromises to be made from all perspectives. By thinking critically about the choices we make, we’re both working to be more responsible members of this place we share with our fellow creatures.
We won’t always see eye to eye, and that’s ok. I’ll keep working to understand your point of view, and even if you will never agree on hunting, I hope you read that owl article and can take something away from that about the heavy responsibility that comes with protecting animals. It doesn’t sound like a role you would want to play personally, and I respect that. But I hope you can see that it’s a responsibility I have chosen to accept. I do feel it’s for a greater good.
If you think I’m full of it, you’re welcome to think that, I just ask if that’s how you feel, let’s just both drop this conversation. But I hope I helped you understand a different viewpoint at least a little, and if you want to talk about anything more, we can.
I first have to say that I really appreciate your tone and your thought out arguments. Most of these types of discussions tend to devolve into non-constructive obstinacy.
And this particular area is a very grey and complex one, so I admit it is not completely black or white for me. And these are big issues that we humans honestly will most likely not solve in any way that either of us would be happy with.
I agree with you on many points, like you have pointed out. You seem to be compassionate, empathetic, and rational.
I think this comes into where I believe our disagreement is. We mostly align in the utlitiarian aspects (I’m not really utilitarian, but I’ll get to that), but we differ in the aspect of commodification. I.e. I do not think we should see sentient beings as commodities. For example, I would not eat an animal who died in an accident. I assume, for instance, that you would not eat your dog if it died in a car crash, and I extend that reasoning to other animals as well.
Completely agree. The optimal approach in my opinion would be to reduce the impact of farming in general, but at the same time not see animals as commodities. Also, even if I would view hunting as a viable way of reducing suffering (which one can argue from a utilitarian standpoint, but I personally don’t for other reasons), we cannot sustain our population on hunting alone. Similarly I think we can’t have a functioning society like we do today with only small scale food production. We would need to either make bigger changes in the societal structure (not very likely), or we need to optimise farming with regards to environmental impact and “collateral damage” (more likely, but still difficult).
This is a hypothetical non-issue in my honest opinion. There is no likely scenario where the entire planet would turn vegan over night. Also, it is not an argument for continuing breeding animals into suffering and death. If anything it is an argument for stopping all of it after this generation of farm animals.
Also, my personal view (even if perhaps not all vegans agree) is to be non-interventionistic. I.e. I don’t think we are gods (like some other commenter said here before) who have a responsibility of maintaining nature at some arbitrary point that we think is the desired status quo. I simply think we should not unnecessarily cause harm, suffering, and death in our daily lives. As far as practicable and possible of course.
Two things. First, virtually all animal food industry today is heavily subsidised and it would not exist without those subsidies. Second, I don’t think we should breed animals into existence just so that they can exist. This is also another opinion that is perhaps not too common amongst all vegans, and it is a bit of a tangent. But I am somewhat of an anti-natalist, both with human and non-human animals. No one can suffer if they haven’t lived. And there is no reason to making beings exist just for the sake of existing. And if that existence is prolonged suffering ending with execution, it does not make sense to say that it is justified.
That owl article was interesting! But I think it is quite absurd in a way that we have fucked up nature so much that we think we should kill a bunch of animals as an attempt to unfuck it.
You have been very respectful, it is very rare to meet someone online with such a respectful and understanding tone when you are discussing differing opinions! I hope I haven’t been too preachy, I also just want you to understand my view.
I can highly recommend this video by Ed Winters. I agree with a lot of his opinions, and he is much more well-spoken and good at explaining arguments than I am.
https://youtu.be/Z3u7hXpOm58
You have been very awesome in this, and I feel this type of interaction is much more constructive and productive than a lot of what has gone on in a lot of these other comments. In talking with some other more angry vegans in the past, I get it’s tiring to take the effort making responses that are really involved like this only to find out the non-vegan taking to you was being disingenuous the whole time or looking to try to catch you doing something non-vegan or whatever stupid point they’re trying to make. But I’m glad we took a chance talking to each other. It’s hard to sit here and type everything out, and I wish more in person conversations went this way.
I think this is a fair assessment. It’s a bit more nuanced for me, but that I feel is pretty fair for your average person. Most people are removed from farm type animals in their daily lives and don’t really make that connection that a hamburger was once chilling in the sun eating grass having a great time. I do think about that though, and it’s what has led to me trending your direction food-wise.
Absolutely. Human population didn’t take off until we learned to become farmers. It’s what made us civilized in a literal and modern sense. And with the whole energy pyramid it definitely makes the most sense. I love the developments going on with genetically altered grains that provide better vitam it n content and the tech bringing us lab synthesized proteins that capture the textures and sometimes tastes of meat and can’t wait for them to scale. I probably love the taste of Beyond more than any meat. It is just way too expensive still, and could stand to be a bit healthier. If price and nutrition parity was there, you’d have me vegan instantly.
Yes, it’s more a thought experiment I give myself. Not intended to be a straw man argument but it could be seen and probably is used by many in that way.
As for interventionism, we could argue that we don’t know enough and just make matters worse. There are definitely real life cases of that. But I do feel we as a whole should be stewards of our planet. We did make most of these problems and should try to fix them, but many will likely take hundreds of years or more to fix realistically.
That is a lot of the root of my feelings of personal and societal responsibility. It’s too late to not do these things, and I feel the just thing to do is own our actions and to do what we can for the world we’ve created. Nothing wrong with your opinions on that though.
I’ll be sure to check out Ed Winters. I’m always looking to get a fresh perspective on things and grow as a person.
Thank you again for taking this time with me. More people should do the same. I feel a great respect for you and your beliefs. You’re definitely someone I would enjoy having regular friendly chats with.