“Officials said that Israel and Egypt were prepared to let foreigners leave the Strip which is under heavy Israeli bombardment, but Hamas had refused.”
“Officials said that Israel and Egypt were prepared to let foreigners leave the Strip which is under heavy Israeli bombardment, but Hamas had refused.”
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza. I hope the international community can come together to find a way. I definitely wouldn’t leave it to Israel lol.
It probably involves with allying with the PLO or some more secular faction of Palestinians, and Egypt. But they’d need to give something to them or else no one has a reason to support them unless they have some victories they can point to.
As a retired Major-General explained on TV over here the other day, Hamas is a Insurrection Movement, which are made of 3 parts, the Political Side, the Military Side and Popular Support.
Want to destroy Hamas, destroy its popular support side.
The current indiscriminate bombing of Palestinians will never destroy it because not only does it increase the Popular Support for any Insurrection Movement against Israel, it also adds to the number of people who would join the military wing of such a movement (i.e. directly put their lives at risk), especially because for all the parroting of Israel’s “human shields” propaganda, what the people there see is Israel choosing to bomb and kill their family, so even those who detest Hamas will detest Israel much much more and with good reason.
Unless Israel is willing to commit a Nazi-sized Genocide (which I suspect its current leadership would do if they thought they could get away with, hence their talk of a “second Nakba”), the solution will never be more violence.
Israel really going for a “If there’s no witnesses, there’s no problem” approach and killing everybody.
They’re targetting and killing journalists (and were already doing so before this) and their families.
States murder journalists and their families has no other reason than to stop the truth from coming out, so taking out a couple of tens of thousand who they see as untermenschen to “tie up loose ends” is hardly going to weigh on their consciences.
Well, they ran out of MSF doctors to shoot.
To stop people from going to extreme lenghts, you need to give them something to lose.
Those people lost everything, of course they will fight by any means necessary
We’ve learned that bombing only makes people more resolved to fight in every war in the 20th and 21st centuries. There’s no reason it would change now. You can’t bomb away ideas.
Uh… Did you forget Japan?
The idea that the atomic bombs directly caused the surrender of Japan is contested, actually. It’s more likely that they created an urgency in what was already looking like a losing battle. The difference in that situation is that Japan wasn’t fighting a war of resistance at any cost against the US, they were fighting as part of an alliance on one front of a world war. In that case it is very real that troops lose morale, civilian casualties become too great, and loss of military assets make victory look unlikely, and then surrender looks attractive by comparison. But I think in the case of popularly supported resistance to colonizers, that threshold is quite high - people feel quite strongly about revenge and are convinced of the justice of their cause in that situation, so the brutality of their colonizers isn’t likely to do anything other than strengthen their resolve.
Frankly, I actually think the atomic bombing and firebombing campaigns would be considered war crimes if they happened today. It’s really weird that people justify it so much by how horrible the Japanese state was at the time - tons of innocent civilians, including lots of children, died horribly, and it was 100% anticipated, and in the case of the atomic bombing, they did it twice, knowing that. You can’t justify your own actions by the crimes of your enemy.
Underrated comment that everyone should read and understand.
The Pro-Israel crowd will say it is all lies and Israel is really making good friends with all Palestinians then act all shocked that rockets keep flying from gaza at them. Bombing the shit out of Palestinians has worked SO well over the last many decades. Yet they figure ‘we just didn’t bomb hard enough’ to make them like us!
That popular support will never disappear, Hamas is using Muslim vs infidels agenda. You see, that works well to brainwash Muslims worldwide. At no point would they stop cursing Israel and Jew.
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Are you high? https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/satellite-images-gaza-destruction/index.html
Flattening whole communities is as targeted as using a shotgun to kill a fly.
“Israeli precision is a paragon of modern warfare” I’ve mentioned the strike that hit a vehicle carrying over 70 refugees on a designated safe route, and the claimants of Israeli’s amazing military technology have had nothing to say about it.
You may need to look up ‘propaganda’.
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Your comments are nothing but frothing Israeli propaganda. If you aren’t lying, you are extremely misinformed of the situation.
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I did respond, I didn’t flatly call you a liar, I was implying that from my perspective your view seems to either be deliberately antagonistic and untrue or you are not receiving accurate coverage of the conflict. I love Jewish people, I’m not an antisemite or desire any sort of death for Jews or any other group for that matter, but the actions of Israel should be condemned, and they have engaged in massive misinformation campaigns related to Palestine for decades. This is not to say I don’t also condemn terrorism and killing of civilians by Hamas as well. But it is relevant to examine who is the original aggressor in the conflict and for what reason the conflict began.
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You didn’t follow your prescription in response to my comment. So I feel your comment is just a flat out lie and you would be a liar by extension.
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Buddy, you haven’t been paying attention to what’s been going on recently have you? Also, a warning drop does nothing but give people time to piss themselves if you only give a hospital a few minutes to evacuate.
Even I knew a day before it happened that they were telling people to leave the hospital with the command center tunnels under it, I saw them talking about it on the BBC so it’s a bit rich to pretend only a few minutes was given.
Hamas literally blocked roads going south and shot at civilians trying to flee the combat zone, Israel is going to great lengths to warn the Palestinian people and get them out the way while hamas are doing everything possible to make sure they can’t get out the way.
I highly doubt that. As it is the reference is to the massive number of times Israel has attacked hospitals over the years.
That doesn’t even make sense. If the point is to destroy Hamas assets and people, there’s no sense in tipping them off about it. So either they’re doing that and destroying people’s homes for no reason, or they’re not actually doing that.
It’s not actually possible to take out military targets like that in civilian neighborhoods with air strikes in a “clean” way. Obviously the only reason they don’t go in on the ground with IDF soldiers if they actually have legitimate targets instead is because the lives of Palestinean civilians are less important than the lives of Israeli soldiers, and they know that air strikes don’t lead to any casualties on their side.
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"Israel says “Hi civilian we’re about to bomb this building because a Hamas target is inside. Please leave so you are not hurt.”
Hamas responds with “Go stand on the roof.”
But your suggestion is that Israel is somehow the bad guy there?
You “know” that because the very people bombing civilians told you so.
Only a very special kind of person would trust killers when they provide unverifiable “justifications” for their killings that just so happen to blame somebody else and excuse their actions.
Just so I’m clear, which aspect of what I described do you believe does not happen?
Just wanna know the right one to cite.
Israel warning people by phone, leaflet, and then “door knocking” while Hamas tells them to go to their roof/“form a human shield” https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/world/middleeast/by-phone-and-leaflet-israeli-attackers-warn-gazans.html?_r=0
Here’s their own words, calling all Palestinians to be martyrs
From wikipedia because I don’t want to read the whole charter. original charter linked below the quote (and on the Wikipedia page)
Here’s a phone call showing the greater scale of how seriously they take viewing every Palestinian as a martyr, by forcing people to remain in the North at gunpoint
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1713500050511253928?t=g9Z3zsdfyW3wxIvuMxuHVg&s=19
Warnings like?
Warnings like the things I posted earlier.
I am aware that Israel is bad at propaganda. If anything, that’s further evidence in my favor.
My point:
Your “evidence”:
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That has nothing to do with my post whatsoever
Yes, because people that care about not killing Innocents would say “why don’t we go in shoot just the terrorist instead of leveling the whole block?”
Urban combat results in more civilian casualties. Urban combat is a hellish meat grinder.
Bullshit
Yes now imagine how easy it is to ambush there. Now imagine you live in the area still. How dangerous would an army be forced to view you as?
You should really read up on urban combat. Aleppo has a lot of documentation on it.
Lmao. No. You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. An Infantry fight in an urban area sucks but it’s far less destructive than leveling entire blocks with explosives.
Less destructive but more fatal to civilians.
It’s weird you don’t know this, honestly
Bullshit. Unless you’re committing war crimes left and right.
Fewer civilian casualties is literally the reason the US started using drone strikes instead of boots on the ground.
It shouldn’t be left to Israel but nobody wants to do it, so we get this cluster fuck. Other surrounding nations can help and take in Palestinian refugees/stamp out Hamas, but the truth is that they don’t actually care about Palestinians either.
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Bibi isn’t interested in that.
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
He’s openly calling for genocide.
Not making their only other choice an Israeli puppet would be a great start. Hamas is reactionary. Getting rid of the abuse would go a long way to putting a cap on the reaction.
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You’ve lost the support of the international community and even the US is distancing itself from the approach you are taking. This is a fools errand to try to extract a part of a society by direct force (see Vietnam, Afghanistan <-two different super powers made that mistake). What this will be is an excuse to murder as judge, jury and executioner as you move to further subjugate a civilian population behind closed doors. Literal closed walls in Gaza’s case. These kids have grown up knowing nothing but what the adults tell them and looking at the walls that keep them in.
“You name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that” How about just releasing the Prisoners for the hostages and going home?
So maybe not everything. Please don’t judge Dan for not responding, He blocked me an hour ago as he didn’t like my response to the justification of the 3,000 children that have been bombed to death in Gaza.
edit: deleted two words I accidentally repeated
I mean, exchanging prisoners means freeing those who massacred on oct.7, and come on, Israel is not that stupid to let them run free again. That exchange will bite them tenfold in years to come if they do it (and they realized it now, hence they don’t agree to it)
He probably blocked you because you argue in bad faith and lie about your historical examples - like pretending Vietnam wasn’t a war of two established, professional militaries just as Korea was.
This, for instance, is an insane proposition and you throw it out like it’s the obvious good choice.
Israel has traded 1000 poisoners for a single soldier in the past why is it “an insane proposition” all of a sudden? https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/world/meast/israel-prisoner-swap-explainer/index.html
You sure can’t be consistent.
You keep quacking dude don’t blame us for noticing it.
I mean, some of those 1,000 prisoners were active in that recent oct.7 massacre, so I guess that Israel learned from its mistakes. As much as it pains them, they can’t effort giving Hamas forces, as they’ll regret it tenfold later.
If Israel was truly worried about regretting it later they wouldn’t be growing a whole new generation of people that have every reason to hate them. Their actions over the decades speak FAR louder than the words they use to seem like they are trying, as does the body count of innocents.
For more than the last decade Israel spent 0 efforts on raising the Gaza population and completely left them to run their own educational/inner governmental funding. That proved to be the worst mistake they could ever do, as that educational program is pure hate fuel for religious extremists and the government funding (which btw is a lot of funding from foreigners) was used for rockets and anti-tank ammunition instead of safe houses for civilians. Heck, the only safe zones are the underground tunnels, which are only used for Hamas fighters.
All that means is that Israel should’ve either completely hammer down on stuff going in, and truly be like china murdering muslims, or completely run the region themselves, which is basically colonialism. Which option is good? None. Who can be blamed for that? The Palestinians leaders.
Don’t get me wrong, Israel’s leaders also chose a very bad option of leaving it alone and letting it grow into a monster, but let’s face it - they had no good options on what to do with Gaza. So blaming everything that’s happening purely on Israel, is just unfair. What could they have done to prevent this?
I could not declare genocide.
Do I really need to go find every quote from Bibi and Israeli Officials declaring their intent?
Not do decades of persecution PRIOR to Hamas even existing.
Not have Israel fund Hamas for years.
Not drop bombs on refugee camps.
Not cut off food, water, electricity.
Not shoot peaceful protesters.
Not kill journalists.
Not kill clearly marked medics.
Do I really need to go on?
“What could they have done to prevent this?”
Fuck
off.
If you don’t understand, from the events currently at play, that Israel is most definitely not going to exchange their prisoners for hostages, then I question if you’ve been paying attention.
Sorry the Cornell thing hurt your feelings so much, but it’s weird for you to follow me around
Im posting all over the place you keep showing up and quacking away.
You know who doesn’t think it’s insane? The families of the the hostages who I quote directly underneath that who say that it has the support of all of Israel. Are you calling them liars? Are you disparaging them and saying they’re insane? This is the opposite of diplomacy, as you say.
Yeah I think someone whose family member is fucking kidnapped is not thinking rationally. Of course they will support literally anything to get their kidnapped relative back
So you are disparaging them. Classy.
Again acknowledging reality is not endorsing any specific view.
When someone you love is a victim of a tragedy you will understand that you are not, in fact, the rational robot you think you are.
Their fortunate to have such a rational person speaking on their behalf
Is that statement irrational?
News: Israel only catches or kills a dozen Hamas fighters but kills 8k citizen civilians with over 1k children under the rubble.
Bullshit.
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The 8k number is confirmed by many organizations. The whole idea that the number is disputed comes from American politics.
It’s amazing that Israel is always the victim, yet never does anything wrong.
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Here’s a list: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/
I bolded them for you
Dan probably blocked you for that one.
Nah. Maybe he’ll come to his senses? Or maybe the UN is antisemetic?
You know this is propaganda right? That number never came from Hamas go find them quoting it as fact, I’ll wait.
The number came from an interview with a doctor right after the attack and it was mistranslated on Aljazeera. Other news agencies never fact checked it and ran with the number attributing it to Hamas.
The number of casualities there was 471. 500 is an acceptable estimate.
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I thought I blocked your genocide apologizing ass… well that’s fixed now.
The first step to deradicalize them is to stop putting Palestinians in a concentration camp. Simple as.
What a strange concentration camp that was, where Palestinians were able to go into Israel to work every day, travel abroad, etc. Almost like most other national borders (except for Schengen), where you need a passport and maybe even a visa to enter. Or like the US, where you’re not allowed in if they even suspect you’re going to work. Also, let’s not forget the terrorists that constantly threaten to kill your citizens. Would you let them into your house?
So which is it, are they being allowed freedom of movement into Israel to work with identification, or you don’t want them in because they’re terrorists who threaten to kill civilians?
All I’ve seen is that some people were allowed in and out, but it isn’t exactly a porous border, identification requirements are strict, getting the necessary approval and documentation is difficult in a place without a functioning state. And you can’t just make rules and distance yourself from the consequences of them just because people are unable to meet the requirements of those rules, you have to actually look at what the effect is.
So you don’t think border control is justified given the presence of terrorists?
I agree that consequences should be taken into consideration, and I assume you don’t think they were in this case.
What’s your solution? What would you have done?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
The UN is very one-sided on this conflict. I was surprised to watch a documentary on the history of the Israeli - Palestine conflict, made by the UN, and it didn’t mention Hamas or their attacks at all. I expected better from the UN, but here we are.
Yes, the UN is sided with the victims, not with a apartheid state.
Yes, because this is just one powerful country killing an entire population of innocent people, and for absolutely no reason. That’s what’s happening. No nuance, no history, nothing. Just this one event, completely isolated and all black and white.
Congrats on your firm grip on reality.
Nope, there is a rich history of apartheid and prison torture too.
Those Gazans with work permits are now being illegally detained in Israel.
Define “illegal” in a war.
Against international law, not that Israel cares
Please point me to the international law (I assume you mean the Geneva Convention) that says that you can’t take prisoners.
I said you can’t illegally detain people without charge, not that you can’t take prisoners. A large number of Palestinians are held without charge in Israelz and in the past few weeks that number has sky rocketed with many arbitrary detention.
Even normally pro-Israeli news outlets are condemning what is happening. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/israeli-tanks-on-outskirts-of-gaza-city-with-key-road-cut
Israel doesn’t really want to be rid of Hamas.
Their investment in the group has already paid dividends.
How are they calling to warn anyone? The entire communications infrastructure is so compromised that ambulances are literally just driving towards the sound of explosions rather than being directed.
There’s a lot of ways, I’ve seen leaflet drops, radio (windup fm radios are widely used), telephone calls (mobile) and drones with speakers being used but I’m sure they’re also using other methods too
Well no you still need infrastructure for mobile. And there are no reports of drones with speakers. The IDF method was dropping a dud first and they aren’t doing that anymore because the mission intensity is too high to sustain it.
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Preferably with something smaller than a 2,000 lb bomb. And a flyers bearing a general warning to evacuate does not count when you won’t let them through your lines. It’s no different to the school bully holding their victim down and “warning” them they’re going to get hit.
And even if the Internet is back now, how did they warn anyone in the same 48 hours they bombed even more than before?
And no. They aren’t doing knocking. That’s something they do in limited operations. Not now.
Memri TV is literally Israeli propaganda.
Basically turn them into a mini West bank; people with no means to defend themselves, constantly getting attacked by settlers and the police. Make them believe that this is normal and that they shouldn’t defend themselves on your way out.
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Let’s discuss another place inside of Palestine where there is an opportunity for peace; the West bank ruled by the Fatah government, which recognizes “Israel”. They also have no weapons that they can realistically use against settlers and the invading army.
Here’s what happens in the West bank, settlements exist in the West bank, settlers murder people in the West bank, and the police are protecting settlers while they’re doing it.
Gaza once was under the control of the PLO and Fatah, and there could’ve been peace, if not for Isn’trael opting to keep building settlements, encouraging people who’re being forced out of their homes to pick the more violent approach of Hamas. Which unlike negotiating with an occupying force, did get them to dismantle their disgusting settlements and leave to avoid losing more soldiers.
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Hamas doesn’t exist in a vacuum though. Most people don’t just wake up one day and think “hmm, terrorism sounds good to me today!” There’s always going to be a minority of people who end up having extremist views and committing violence, but a functioning state is able to keep those people under control. The fact that Netanyahu has no motivation to make the situation better is directly what causes this situation where people help Hamas out of desperation. They can’t wait for Israelis to get their act together and elect someone who is strongly motivated to make life better for Palestineans, they see that they have to live on the other side of a wall where only they have to deal with that level of poverty and violence on a regular basis and it’s unfair. If you put yourself in their shoes you’d get it too. That’s not a justification at all, it’s just empathy for their situation.
I can also empathize with Israelis who want revenge. People in Israel expect safety and don’t think of their country as a war-zone. It’s easy to think of the problem as entirely one-sided when you don’t have to deal with it, but it’s just not the case.
You could only ACTUALLY get rid of Hamas by getting rid of the current Israeli leadership, because even if you actually knocked out Hamas themselves, the Israeli leadership will just gin up a replacement Hamas to be their strawman in Gaza until they’ve bombed their way into settlerizing Gaza same way they’re doing to the West Bank.
There is a way, it’s just excruciatingly difficult and has no chance of happening.
People will excess wealth will need to give up some of that wealth so others can have more.
For example, increasing immigration limits to the US and giving refugees the means to contribute to society, such as housing and utilities. It shouldn’t just be the US, either. All nations with excess can pitch in to help. This can be done, but the hand-sitters among us are already chomping at the bit to tell us why it can’t.
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Yale Professor Jason Stanley Identifies 10 Tactics of Fascism: The “Cult of the Leader,” Law & Order, Victimhood and More
On Lemmy, we are past the point of denying Palestinians exist or putting that word between brackets.
This shit won’t fly here. You can’t start a sentence by denying a whole group exists.