Gun bans aren’t going to make anyone, except for police and criminals, safer.
And then @spaceghoti:
Funny how the rest of the First World disagrees, and somehow they have far, far fewer mass shootings.
This is how 2A debates always fucking go, amd have done for decades. Progress will never be made so long as both sides keep ignoring the real goalposts and keep talking past each other instead of listening.
I’ll do my best to break this down for both of you chucklefucks:
Baldprophet, it’s immaterial if gun bans will make anyone safer or not. The 2A is an Amendment, not a law, which is why gun bans are unconstitutional and an Amendment is required instead. Nothing in the 2A is predicated on safety.
Spaceghoti, it’s immaterial how many mass shootings we have. The 2A is an Amendment, not a law, which is why gun bans are unconstitutional and an Amendment is required instead. Nothing in the 2A is predicated on the number of mass shootings we have.
Spaceghoti, you get a second blurb, because Baldprophet brought up the irrelevant safety issue, and then you moved the goalpost. Unless safety and mass shootings are synonymous, which is not something you established in your post, your response to Baldprophet is a non sequitur and utterly irrelevant even to their irrelevant nonsense.
Here’s why I don’t give a rat’s ass about your analysis. The Second Amendment has been interpreted to hold gun ownership as sacrosanct, and it’s bullshit. It doesn’t say that. Here’s what it does say:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Interpreted one way, the way we currently interpret it, there’s no way to infringe on the right to own guns. Interpreted another way, the right is to participate in a militia and thus to own and maintain guns for the purposes of national defense. Somehow, all the 2A freaks seem to skip over the first part.
I’m concerned about how guns are being used to create and escalate violence across the nation in numbers we’ve never seen before. We’re the only first world nation in the world that can’t seem to figure out the simple and obvious solution that guns don’t make us safer. It doesn’t save lives. The proliferation of guns among the civilian population has only increased violence, and I really don’t give a shit about any other argument.
Until the gun worshipers stop getting in the way of any kind of commonsense reform, up to and including a new Amendment to clarify or repeal the Second Amendment, I will continue to advocate for the banning of all guns. Because I consider human lives far more important than someone’s fetish.
That’s one interpretation. Let’s see if the founding fathers wrote anything else to clarify what they meant…
“A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined…”
George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790
“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”
Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776
“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.”
Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787
“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.”
Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Stephens Smith, son-in-law of John Adams, December 20, 1787
“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776
“A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.” - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785
“The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.”
Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824
“On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed.”
Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823
“I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence … I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy.”
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778
“To disarm the people…[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them.”
George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788
“I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.”
George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788
“Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops.”
Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787
“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.”
James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
“The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country.”
James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789
“…the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone…”
James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”
William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783
“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… “To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”
Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788
“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined… The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778
“The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves.”
Thomas Paine, “Thoughts on Defensive War” in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775
“The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.”
Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788
“The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.”
Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833
“What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty … Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.”
Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789
“For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.”
Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787
“If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.”
Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28
“[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.”
Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788
“As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”
Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789
OP was making an argument based on the constitution, I was simply working within the framework they established to make a counterargument. I could have just as easily quoted Marx, Che, Malcolm X, or any of dozens of others of more modern political icons of the left that understand what happens to a populace once they’ve been disarmed. Spoiler alert: they say the same things the framers of the constitution said.
As far as their moral failings, they were a product of their time. 200 years from now you will be remembered as a savage, ignorant moron too. That’s of course assuming you do anything with your life worth remembering 200 years from now…
The fastest growing segment of gun owners in the US is women and LGBTQ+ people, and it’s not because their heart isn’t breaking whenever a school gets shot up. It’s because they know that guns are never going away, and the right is not getting any less violent, so you better be prepared to protect yourself, because those fascist cops don’t give a fuck about you.
Thank you for making my point so thoroughly. They believed in strong, disciplined militias. And they never imagined the horrors of modern weapons technology inflicted on civilian populations by fellow civilians.
If that’s your takeaway then I suggest you return to grade school and have them teach you how to read again, because the whole comprehension part seems to have sailed right over your head.
Dang I was 100% with you until the last paragraph, taking hard-stances just makes people dig-in their heels.
I want access to guns so my trans/PoC/whatever friends can never have their rights taken away. So if a round of J6’ers is ever successful, they can resist.
That being said of course there should be some reasonable laws, you probably shouldn’t be able to pick up a sport-type rifle same-day by just answering a few questions on a questionnaire; we make people get licenses and prove they can drive, I’m not sure guns should be any different.
Except arming your trans/PoC friends is likely to get them killed even more than when they don’t. The presence of guns escalates violence, far more often than it de-escalates.
Furthermore, arming everyone increases the chances that innocent bystanders will get hit. Or do you think everyone ever hit by a bullet was its target? The myth about the “good guy with a gun” is exactly that: a myth. The good guys don’t hit their targets with that much accuracy. I’m sorry if this ruined anyone’s “Die Hard” fantasies, but those fantasies are literally killing people every day.
So if we take away guns, only criminals will have guns, right. Sure, I’ll concede that. Those with guns will be criminals. They’ll also be far less likely to shoot you while they commit a crime because they’ll have no reason to think you’re going to shoot them first. I would rather be robbed than shot. I can get more money. I can’t get more life.
Last, I find it curious that you took my conditional statement as an absolute. I pointed out that in light of the unwillingness of 2A freaks to consider any compromise, my only option is to demand all guns be taken away. What other choice do I have? If compromise were possible then I would accept that. I’m not going to make perfect the enemy of good. But thanks to the gun lobby and the Federalist Society, we can’t have any restrictions on gun ownership and zero discussion on the impact guns are having on the health of our society. To balance that extreme, it is necessary for people who care about human lives to go to the other extreme.
When gun advocates are finally willing to acknowledge the problems they’re creating, I’m willing to talk. Until then, I see no reason why I should give any more ground than they are.
Sorry bud, but safety is absolutely a factor. The top mass murders of the 20th century (body counts in tens of millions) were preceded by the disarmament of the targeted groups by the government. The Second Amendment exists to help prevent that kind of thing happening here.
As long as the police are generally corrupt and unreliable, and as long as the United States has a standing army, there will never be an amendment revoking the right to keep and bear arms. If such an amendment does come to pass, there will be a civil war and likely an end to the American experiment.
@baldprophet:
And then @spaceghoti:
This is how 2A debates always fucking go, amd have done for decades. Progress will never be made so long as both sides keep ignoring the real goalposts and keep talking past each other instead of listening.
I’ll do my best to break this down for both of you chucklefucks:
Baldprophet, it’s immaterial if gun bans will make anyone safer or not. The 2A is an Amendment, not a law, which is why gun bans are unconstitutional and an Amendment is required instead. Nothing in the 2A is predicated on safety.
Spaceghoti, it’s immaterial how many mass shootings we have. The 2A is an Amendment, not a law, which is why gun bans are unconstitutional and an Amendment is required instead. Nothing in the 2A is predicated on the number of mass shootings we have.
Spaceghoti, you get a second blurb, because Baldprophet brought up the irrelevant safety issue, and then you moved the goalpost. Unless safety and mass shootings are synonymous, which is not something you established in your post, your response to Baldprophet is a non sequitur and utterly irrelevant even to their irrelevant nonsense.
Here’s why I don’t give a rat’s ass about your analysis. The Second Amendment has been interpreted to hold gun ownership as sacrosanct, and it’s bullshit. It doesn’t say that. Here’s what it does say:
Interpreted one way, the way we currently interpret it, there’s no way to infringe on the right to own guns. Interpreted another way, the right is to participate in a militia and thus to own and maintain guns for the purposes of national defense. Somehow, all the 2A freaks seem to skip over the first part.
I’m concerned about how guns are being used to create and escalate violence across the nation in numbers we’ve never seen before. We’re the only first world nation in the world that can’t seem to figure out the simple and obvious solution that guns don’t make us safer. It doesn’t save lives. The proliferation of guns among the civilian population has only increased violence, and I really don’t give a shit about any other argument.
Until the gun worshipers stop getting in the way of any kind of commonsense reform, up to and including a new Amendment to clarify or repeal the Second Amendment, I will continue to advocate for the banning of all guns. Because I consider human lives far more important than someone’s fetish.
And that’s all I have to say to all of you.
That’s one interpretation. Let’s see if the founding fathers wrote anything else to clarify what they meant…
“A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined…”
“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”
“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.”
“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.”
“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
“A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.” - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785
“The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.”
“On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed.”
“I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence … I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy.”
“To disarm the people…[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them.”
“I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.”
“Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops.”
“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.”
“The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country.”
“…the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone…”
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”
“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… “To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”
“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined… The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
“The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves.”
“The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.”
“The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.”
“What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty … Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.”
“For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.”
“If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.”
“[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.”
“As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”
Yes, let’s hear what rich white misogynist racist’s said about muskets hundreds of years ago. Definitely should hold importance nowadays.
OP was making an argument based on the constitution, I was simply working within the framework they established to make a counterargument. I could have just as easily quoted Marx, Che, Malcolm X, or any of dozens of others of more modern political icons of the left that understand what happens to a populace once they’ve been disarmed. Spoiler alert: they say the same things the framers of the constitution said.
As far as their moral failings, they were a product of their time. 200 years from now you will be remembered as a savage, ignorant moron too. That’s of course assuming you do anything with your life worth remembering 200 years from now…
The fastest growing segment of gun owners in the US is women and LGBTQ+ people, and it’s not because their heart isn’t breaking whenever a school gets shot up. It’s because they know that guns are never going away, and the right is not getting any less violent, so you better be prepared to protect yourself, because those fascist cops don’t give a fuck about you.
Thank you for making my point so thoroughly. They believed in strong, disciplined militias. And they never imagined the horrors of modern weapons technology inflicted on civilian populations by fellow civilians.
If that’s your takeaway then I suggest you return to grade school and have them teach you how to read again, because the whole comprehension part seems to have sailed right over your head.
It may help with his reading comprehension to use the text in an analogy, like:
“A well balanced breakfast, being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed.”
This way it is clear, “a well balanced breakfast” isn’t who has the right to keep and eat food, “the people” are, because breakfast is important.
Sure, if you’re operating on a third grade reading level.
Dang I was 100% with you until the last paragraph, taking hard-stances just makes people dig-in their heels.
I want access to guns so my trans/PoC/whatever friends can never have their rights taken away. So if a round of J6’ers is ever successful, they can resist.
That being said of course there should be some reasonable laws, you probably shouldn’t be able to pick up a sport-type rifle same-day by just answering a few questions on a questionnaire; we make people get licenses and prove they can drive, I’m not sure guns should be any different.
Driving a car isn’t a right enshrined in the constitution. Owning a firearm, however, is.
Except arming your trans/PoC friends is likely to get them killed even more than when they don’t. The presence of guns escalates violence, far more often than it de-escalates.
Furthermore, arming everyone increases the chances that innocent bystanders will get hit. Or do you think everyone ever hit by a bullet was its target? The myth about the “good guy with a gun” is exactly that: a myth. The good guys don’t hit their targets with that much accuracy. I’m sorry if this ruined anyone’s “Die Hard” fantasies, but those fantasies are literally killing people every day.
So if we take away guns, only criminals will have guns, right. Sure, I’ll concede that. Those with guns will be criminals. They’ll also be far less likely to shoot you while they commit a crime because they’ll have no reason to think you’re going to shoot them first. I would rather be robbed than shot. I can get more money. I can’t get more life.
Last, I find it curious that you took my conditional statement as an absolute. I pointed out that in light of the unwillingness of 2A freaks to consider any compromise, my only option is to demand all guns be taken away. What other choice do I have? If compromise were possible then I would accept that. I’m not going to make perfect the enemy of good. But thanks to the gun lobby and the Federalist Society, we can’t have any restrictions on gun ownership and zero discussion on the impact guns are having on the health of our society. To balance that extreme, it is necessary for people who care about human lives to go to the other extreme.
When gun advocates are finally willing to acknowledge the problems they’re creating, I’m willing to talk. Until then, I see no reason why I should give any more ground than they are.
Your dogmatic fundamentalism prevents your words from being persuasive.
I don’t have the words to describe how much that hurts my feelings.
Sorry bud, but safety is absolutely a factor. The top mass murders of the 20th century (body counts in tens of millions) were preceded by the disarmament of the targeted groups by the government. The Second Amendment exists to help prevent that kind of thing happening here.
As long as the police are generally corrupt and unreliable, and as long as the United States has a standing army, there will never be an amendment revoking the right to keep and bear arms. If such an amendment does come to pass, there will be a civil war and likely an end to the American experiment.
This is the most stupid “argument” in this discussion so far. As if a bunch of armed civilian loonies could prevent the government from going rogue.
See: Vietnam. See: Afghanistan.
Both of these countries laugh at that notion.
And Iraq. And Syria. Or, shit, France in the late 18th C.