Germany had been reluctant to send lethal arms and tanks to Ukraine months after the Russian invasion started for fear of further provoking Russia. German chancellor Scholz first only sent helmets to Ukraine, of all the more useful military hardware Germany could have sent sooner.
Wouldn’t have made a difference to the outcome of the war anyway. And if they hadn’t sent those heavy weapons, Ukraine might have not attempted their disastrous counter-offensive, and all those fallen soldiers might still be alive.
Great job, Western powers: Block peace talks and send weapons so that the war lasts probably two years the longer than necessary, hundreds of thousands additional dead, a shit-ton of destroyed infrastructure, large swaths of farmland mined and littered with unexploded ordinance, and worse negotiating position for Ukraine. Some strategic geniuses at work there.
I would disagree. Russia won’t stop so long as Putin is alive and Russia is still in Ukraine. He lied numerous times and could not be trusted. That’s like imagining Britain to give up and trust Hitler after the fall of France. As much as Russian propaganda try to frame it, the Russian state is the fascist one.
Well the strategic calculus for Ukraine is 100% guaranteed war now or 95% guaranteed war later. I don’t see a practical reason why ceasefire is a bad option here.
I’m sure ww2 Britain would have been quite happy with a simple ceasefire especially if it meant more time for American aid to arrive
Brother the whole reason Putin started this war is he was scared Ukraine was becoming too well armed and he wouldn’t be able to invade it in the future. This isn’t ww2, we both know Russia cannot hope to compete in industrial/military output with the countries supplying Ukraine (if only they would actually supply the gear).
And also I might be misremembering but when has Putin asked for much less gotten a ceasefire of any length of time after 2022? Can you give a source?
Fair point on your first paragraph. Ukraine was also making a huge headway in defeating separatists in Eastern Ukraine before Putin ordered the full scale invasion.
I suspect the reason they didn’t take it is more of internal politics, the current government is synonymous with war and growing more and more unpopular as fatigue and stalemate sets in. They don’t understand what drives US foreign policy; The US keeps telling Ukraine to avoid striking at Russia itself, and moderating the flow of equipment so Ukraine never gets too successful.
The United States doesn’t want Ukraine to lose but they really really don’t want Russia to lose either, because that would cause instability (and god knows what could happen when the government of a nuclear superpower collapses). Like, when prigozhin was doing his thunder run to Moscow, they specifically told Ukraine not to rock the boat, even though that’s when Russia was at its most vulnerable with its command structure in total disarray/panic.
In general I feel like they just want the Ukraine conflict to simmer down already so they can focus on China (and also now that it’s about to erupt, on the middle east).
The US is now pushing Ukraine to negotiate and make concessions. I guess the US admin doesn’t actually believe that Putler “will not stop until dead”, or they wouldn’t do that, would they? Maybe they were just saying that to get people like you on board with their escalations.
Putin had also asked for ceasefire when he started losing. It is naive to think he won’t use it as opportunity to regroup and attack again. Even the Nazis offered terms for ceasefire before to the West.
Putin could have stopped at Crimea when the West basically gave him the Munich moment, when they only gave the Russian president a slap on the wrist for annexing the peninsula despite others having demanded harder sanctions. But like Hitler, he wanted more. Don’t try to enable another fascist by thinking the tears are not from a crocodile.
There are so many differences between Nazi Germany and present-day Russia, between Putin and Hitler, and between this war and WW2. It’s a great rhetoric tool for shutting down discussion though.
No matter how badly the war goes, no matter what the actual things that Russia says they want, no matter that Ukraine is destroyed and hundreds of thousands soldiers dead: They have to keep on fighting. Can’t negotiate with Hitler! Can’t trust anything they say! Have to keep on fighting until Putin is no more or everyone is dead, because, you know, HiTLeR!! Hitler is coming to kill us all and we need to fight to the death!
No need for analysis, no need for evidence. HITLER! Argument over.
Whether you admit it or not, Russia is a fascist state. I’m sure there were German versions of misinformed peaceniks and vatniks who implored the same to the Allies when Germany made overtures to them with fingers crossed behind their backs.
Let’s look at some hallmarks of the Nazi regime and compare this to Russia, shall we?
Ethnonationalism? Russian nationalism is multi-ethnic, quite unlike Nazi ideology. The state-promoted Ukrainian Banderites, on the other hand, love to go on about the difference between white Europeans and “asiatic” Russian orcs.
Brownshirts? United Russia does not have a bunch of SA-like street thugs. But in Ukraine I’ve seen pictures of Right Sector & co that look exactly like that.
Anti-communism? Most types of communists are tolerated in Russia to some degree. Ukraine, on the other hand, has outlawed all left-wing parties and criminalized communist symbols.
War as a first resort? Putin was in power for 20 years before he started this alleged master plan of conquering half of Europe. Hitler always wanted to go to war, he wrote that shit down even before he came to power. Putin spent until 2008 trying to get along, then started pleading for Russian security interests to please please please not be ignored. In 2014 he signed the Minsk agreements, even though it would almost certainly have been easier for Russia to roll over Ukraine right then and there. In 2022 immediately started peace negotiations after invading. Clearly didn’t even bring enough troops for a proper war. So no, war was clearly not plan A here.
Genocidal SS death squads trailing the front line and murdering whole villages? Hmm, no. In fact, the amount of civilians killed in Ukraine since Feb 2022 is pretty low for how much fighting is going on. Israel already killed more civilians in 4 weeks. The US invasion of Iraq was a lot worse, by comparison. This doesn’t even come close to the organized mass murder of the Nazis.
Germany has been the second largest military supplier to Ukraine after the US. They are very much providing for that war too.
Germany had been reluctant to send lethal arms and tanks to Ukraine months after the Russian invasion started for fear of further provoking Russia. German chancellor Scholz first only sent helmets to Ukraine, of all the more useful military hardware Germany could have sent sooner.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/10/11/germany-to-send-ukraine-1b-in-air-defense-tech-plus-more-tanks
Sure, it took them a month or 2, just like everyone else. But look at them now.
At first they wanted to just let Ukraine fall until the Ukrainians actually put up a fight themselves.
israel however really needs a lot of bombs because there’s still like 1million kids left in Gaza not buried beneath the rubble.
Why would they want Ukraine to fall?
Oh great, another Lemmy user thinks Israel is targeting kids in Gaza…
Wouldn’t have made a difference to the outcome of the war anyway. And if they hadn’t sent those heavy weapons, Ukraine might have not attempted their disastrous counter-offensive, and all those fallen soldiers might still be alive.
Great job, Western powers: Block peace talks and send weapons so that the war lasts probably two years the longer than necessary, hundreds of thousands additional dead, a shit-ton of destroyed infrastructure, large swaths of farmland mined and littered with unexploded ordinance, and worse negotiating position for Ukraine. Some strategic geniuses at work there.
I would disagree. Russia won’t stop so long as Putin is alive and Russia is still in Ukraine. He lied numerous times and could not be trusted. That’s like imagining Britain to give up and trust Hitler after the fall of France. As much as Russian propaganda try to frame it, the Russian state is the fascist one.
Well the strategic calculus for Ukraine is 100% guaranteed war now or 95% guaranteed war later. I don’t see a practical reason why ceasefire is a bad option here.
I’m sure ww2 Britain would have been quite happy with a simple ceasefire especially if it meant more time for American aid to arrive
And let the Nazis recoup and build up forces… just like allowing Putin to do so when he had asked for a ceasefire before.
People haven’t learned have they?
Brother the whole reason Putin started this war is he was scared Ukraine was becoming too well armed and he wouldn’t be able to invade it in the future. This isn’t ww2, we both know Russia cannot hope to compete in industrial/military output with the countries supplying Ukraine (if only they would actually supply the gear).
And also I might be misremembering but when has Putin asked for much less gotten a ceasefire of any length of time after 2022? Can you give a source?
Fair point on your first paragraph. Ukraine was also making a huge headway in defeating separatists in Eastern Ukraine before Putin ordered the full scale invasion.
Putin asked for ceasefire several times especially after Ukraine retook Kharkov region and stopped at the current frontline https://www.atalayar.com/en/articulo/politics/putin-certifies-annexation-occupied-ukrainian-territories-and-calls-ceasefire-kiev/20220930153801158438.html
I suspect the reason they didn’t take it is more of internal politics, the current government is synonymous with war and growing more and more unpopular as fatigue and stalemate sets in. They don’t understand what drives US foreign policy; The US keeps telling Ukraine to avoid striking at Russia itself, and moderating the flow of equipment so Ukraine never gets too successful.
The United States doesn’t want Ukraine to lose but they really really don’t want Russia to lose either, because that would cause instability (and god knows what could happen when the government of a nuclear superpower collapses). Like, when prigozhin was doing his thunder run to Moscow, they specifically told Ukraine not to rock the boat, even though that’s when Russia was at its most vulnerable with its command structure in total disarray/panic.
In general I feel like they just want the Ukraine conflict to simmer down already so they can focus on China (and also now that it’s about to erupt, on the middle east).
The US is now pushing Ukraine to negotiate and make concessions. I guess the US admin doesn’t actually believe that Putler “will not stop until dead”, or they wouldn’t do that, would they? Maybe they were just saying that to get people like you on board with their escalations.
Putin had also asked for ceasefire when he started losing. It is naive to think he won’t use it as opportunity to regroup and attack again. Even the Nazis offered terms for ceasefire before to the West.
Putin could have stopped at Crimea when the West basically gave him the Munich moment, when they only gave the Russian president a slap on the wrist for annexing the peninsula despite others having demanded harder sanctions. But like Hitler, he wanted more. Don’t try to enable another fascist by thinking the tears are not from a crocodile.
Edit: wording
There are so many differences between Nazi Germany and present-day Russia, between Putin and Hitler, and between this war and WW2. It’s a great rhetoric tool for shutting down discussion though.
No matter how badly the war goes, no matter what the actual things that Russia says they want, no matter that Ukraine is destroyed and hundreds of thousands soldiers dead: They have to keep on fighting. Can’t negotiate with Hitler! Can’t trust anything they say! Have to keep on fighting until Putin is no more or everyone is dead, because, you know, HiTLeR!! Hitler is coming to kill us all and we need to fight to the death!
No need for analysis, no need for evidence. HITLER! Argument over.
Whether you admit it or not, Russia is a fascist state. I’m sure there were German versions of misinformed peaceniks and vatniks who implored the same to the Allies when Germany made overtures to them with fingers crossed behind their backs.
Let’s look at some hallmarks of the Nazi regime and compare this to Russia, shall we?
Ethnonationalism? Russian nationalism is multi-ethnic, quite unlike Nazi ideology. The state-promoted Ukrainian Banderites, on the other hand, love to go on about the difference between white Europeans and “asiatic” Russian orcs.
Brownshirts? United Russia does not have a bunch of SA-like street thugs. But in Ukraine I’ve seen pictures of Right Sector & co that look exactly like that.
Anti-communism? Most types of communists are tolerated in Russia to some degree. Ukraine, on the other hand, has outlawed all left-wing parties and criminalized communist symbols.
War as a first resort? Putin was in power for 20 years before he started this alleged master plan of conquering half of Europe. Hitler always wanted to go to war, he wrote that shit down even before he came to power. Putin spent until 2008 trying to get along, then started pleading for Russian security interests to please please please not be ignored. In 2014 he signed the Minsk agreements, even though it would almost certainly have been easier for Russia to roll over Ukraine right then and there. In 2022 immediately started peace negotiations after invading. Clearly didn’t even bring enough troops for a proper war. So no, war was clearly not plan A here.
Genocidal SS death squads trailing the front line and murdering whole villages? Hmm, no. In fact, the amount of civilians killed in Ukraine since Feb 2022 is pretty low for how much fighting is going on. Israel already killed more civilians in 4 weeks. The US invasion of Iraq was a lot worse, by comparison. This doesn’t even come close to the organized mass murder of the Nazis.