A straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be “attacking a straw man”.
The conversation was about how all labor is skilled labor, then you brought up an entirely audacious hyperbole about a specific career field and argued against your own example. Yes, surgeons need more training than a burger flipper, and yes, they deserve apt compensation for that disparity in time and expertise, but that does not mean that the burger flipper is “unskilled” or that the surgeon would be any more capable of flipping burgers because of their training to be a surgeon. Your “demonstration” was irrelevant to the topic at hand and constituted a bad faith argument. That is what you were being called out on, not the content of the argument itself.
Let’s take a look at the original thesis from @unfreeradical, shall we:
Different kinds of labor take different skills, not more or less, better or worse.
I consider ‘skill’ to be measurable by the amount of time needed to acquire it. You can take somebody fresh out of high school, and turn him into a competent fry cook in a month, but not into a competent surgeon. Hence the surgeon requires both more skill, as well as different skills. Therefore the surgeon/fry-cook example is a counterexample to the thesis, and thus disproves the thesis.
but that does not mean that the burger flipper is “unskilled”
I never said that burger flippers are unskilled, or that they need no training, just that 1 month is enough to learn how to do it. So, basically you’re misrepresenting my argument to claim I’ve used a straw man argument.
No. They said that labor did not require more or less skill. They did not say that all labor is skilled labor. You, ironically, are fighting the straw man.
That wasn’t my point because i didn’t say that. I was explaining that the person who did was only describing how having more or less skill is true using that scenario.
You said that different labor does not take more or less skill. Perhaps you were trying to make a different point that you are now trying to tease out socraticly.
Do you think making false statements is a valuable approach? Do you think a job requiring less skill is a bad thing or that it should be respected any less than one that does?
I observed that different kinds of labor require skills that differ qualitatively, yet by the inherent attributes of labor emerges no particular ranking among the kinds.
You are conflating a duration of time invested acquiring a particular skill, which is quantitative, and therefore may be ranked, if desired, with a skill itself.
Are such observations broadly relevant or valuable, though, within the context?
Yes. Skill can be measured by the time needed to attain it. Since the skills needed by a surgeon take years to acquire, the surgeon requires more skill than the fry cook. This is a counterexample to your thesis. And by being a counterexample to your thesis, it is relevant and/or valuable. Unless of course, your thesis were to be considered irrelevant and worthless.
You are conflating a duration of time invested acquiring a particular skill, which is quantitative, and therefore may be ranked, if desired, with a skill itself.
Well, I do agree that the surgeon isn’t necessarily a better person because he has spend more time studying, but the greater time investment in training a surgeon is something that needs to be taken into consideration. How do you think should it be considered?
Again, skills are different, not greater or lesser.
That’s what’s called an axiom, because it’s a statement that can’t really be argued. To disprove it, a valuation of skills would need to be imposed, and any valuation could just as easily be rejected, or turn out to be useless. And I do agree with your axiom.
So, my question is, what conclusions do you derive from the axiom?
They were just demonstrating that the labor of the surgeon does actually require more skill. Because it does, objectively.
In this case it was a straw man argument.
The conversation was about how all labor is skilled labor, then you brought up an entirely audacious hyperbole about a specific career field and argued against your own example. Yes, surgeons need more training than a burger flipper, and yes, they deserve apt compensation for that disparity in time and expertise, but that does not mean that the burger flipper is “unskilled” or that the surgeon would be any more capable of flipping burgers because of their training to be a surgeon. Your “demonstration” was irrelevant to the topic at hand and constituted a bad faith argument. That is what you were being called out on, not the content of the argument itself.
Let’s take a look at the original thesis from @unfreeradical, shall we:
I consider ‘skill’ to be measurable by the amount of time needed to acquire it. You can take somebody fresh out of high school, and turn him into a competent fry cook in a month, but not into a competent surgeon. Hence the surgeon requires both more skill, as well as different skills. Therefore the surgeon/fry-cook example is a counterexample to the thesis, and thus disproves the thesis.
I never said that burger flippers are unskilled, or that they need no training, just that 1 month is enough to learn how to do it. So, basically you’re misrepresenting my argument to claim I’ve used a straw man argument.
No. They said that labor did not require more or less skill. They did not say that all labor is skilled labor. You, ironically, are fighting the straw man.
It was a strawman, or if you prefer, a bogeyman.
It’s not a strawman just because you miss the point so entirely.
Your point is that if you needed surgery, then you would want it performed other than by a cook with a dirty spatula.
Your point is meaningless.
No one suggested that someone performing surgery would not be properly trained.
That wasn’t my point because i didn’t say that. I was explaining that the person who did was only describing how having more or less skill is true using that scenario.
Skill is not a quantity.
You identified as a quantity duration of time invested training.
You conflated an item with one of its attributes.
You can have a quantity of skill.
Skill is not a requirement for justice, nor is it something that should be denied from workers.
Some skills surely are less common within some population, and some may require more training above the skill sets generally shared within a society.
No one is suggesting receiving surgery from an uncredentialed surgeon.
Are such observations broadly relevant or valuable, though, within the context?
You said that different labor does not take more or less skill. Perhaps you were trying to make a different point that you are now trying to tease out socraticly.
Do you think making false statements is a valuable approach? Do you think a job requiring less skill is a bad thing or that it should be respected any less than one that does?
I observed that different kinds of labor require skills that differ qualitatively, yet by the inherent attributes of labor emerges no particular ranking among the kinds.
What statements have I made that are inaccurate?
It is inaccurate to say that labor does not require more or less skill. That is what you said.
You are conflating a duration of time invested acquiring a particular skill, which is quantitative, and therefore may be ranked, if desired, with a skill itself.
No one is conflating anything. You are arguing with yourself. Rank it however you want. People can have more or less skill, and that’s OK.
It doesn’t mean that one person deserves more rights than another. THAT is the point.
How are you ranking one skill against another?
What is your criteria or method?
There is an elder swordsman who has dedicated their life to refining their blade. A life of training, failure, modesty, and improvement.
How can you distinguish their work from a novice? And how do you dismiss their skill so readily?
More importantly, should the novice not be treated just as well, in any case? Because skill is not the deciding factor in justice.
Yes. Skill can be measured by the time needed to attain it. Since the skills needed by a surgeon take years to acquire, the surgeon requires more skill than the fry cook. This is a counterexample to your thesis. And by being a counterexample to your thesis, it is relevant and/or valuable. Unless of course, your thesis were to be considered irrelevant and worthless.
You are conflating a duration of time invested acquiring a particular skill, which is quantitative, and therefore may be ranked, if desired, with a skill itself.
What is your thesis?
Skills differ qualitatively, but not by expressing any natural ranking as greater or lesser one against another.
Well, I do agree that the surgeon isn’t necessarily a better person because he has spend more time studying, but the greater time investment in training a surgeon is something that needs to be taken into consideration. How do you think should it be considered?
Now you are shifting the goalposts. I am not asserting that no one would take note of how someone may acquire one skill compared to another.
Again, skills are different, not greater or lesser.
That’s what’s called an axiom, because it’s a statement that can’t really be argued. To disprove it, a valuation of skills would need to be imposed, and any valuation could just as easily be rejected, or turn out to be useless. And I do agree with your axiom.
So, my question is, what conclusions do you derive from the axiom?