For me at least, it’s more of “conservatives are crazy, conspiracy-led, bigots but liberals are annoying.” and this of course only applies to the most outspoken of both sides.
I know plenty of people who vote republican, that are decent people (not antivax, not racist, not homophobic), but are either religious or gun nuts. Hell, I have a coworker that agrees with 95% of democratic policies but will never vote for them because they’ll “take his guns.” Do I think they’re dumb, sure. Do I think they’re evil, no?
Liberals I see like vegans. The core messaging is right, but the preachier you get, the more people are going to dislike you, even if they agree with you on principle. Even though I’ve voted democrat in every election, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes when someone told me I should stop using the word “marijuana” because it’s racist.
I don’t really want to hang out with qanon, racist types or people where I have to be careful of saying “mailman” instead of “mail carrier”. Obviously if I had to choose, it’d be the latter, but I don’t have to choose because 80% of people aren’t that politically motivated every second of their day.
I have a coworker that agrees with 95% of democratic policies but will never vote for them because they’ll “take his guns.”
Did he not hear trump say he likes to take the guns first and worry about the law later? Did he not hear trump say China was too soft in Tiananmen Square?
The Democrats are coming for the guns… but so is trump.
You’re giving these guys too much credit. They don’t follow the news or read anything, ever. This is the same coworker who, when a hasidic Jewish person walked into our shop, said “I thought Amish couldn’t work with electricity” and was 100% genuine.
Your absolutely right. Trump gets a pretty failing grade on 2A rights and from a general libertarian measure, and shouldn’t even be run on republican tickets. As someone who wants more Democrat aligned things like universal healthcare, UBI, police reform, and tax reform, I want those things from a libertarian framestate where those things are the most effective way for the federal government to provide for the common good with the least amount of bureaucracy and government intrusion into citizen’s lives. This means I hold all of my constitutional rights in high regard, the 2nd among them.
I hate having my options being a “choose which rights you least want to lose” adventure game. Since taking the guns is a Democrat plank compared to at least lip service in support at the Republican party level, you get shills like Trump getting the pro gun vote cause he was quiet about it for long enough. Living in the flyovers, I have been voting for my not-anto-gun Democrat at the state level, but I wish i had those options at the House/Senate and Presidental levels too because without RCV my third party votes are basically protest votes. Further off topic, I am getting feed up with more and more libertarian candidates not being libertarian but Christian nationalist lite. The cancer is spreading.
I am getting feed up with more and more libertarian candidates not being libertarian but Christian nationalist lite. The cancer is spreading.
They’re all corporatists. They state a couple of libertarian ideals that are in no way reflected in their voting history, and then they go hard for the GOP agenda. I guess that’s a good strategy, since most libertarians in the United States seem to actually be Republicans. It is really frustrating being someone who doesn’t fully align with either party, and having no other options.
What alternative is there to getting preachier? I don’t get in people’s faces, but I understand why people do it. For years, they’ve lightly suggested perhaps making things not terrible, and it’s let the far right get away with heinous shit.
Depends on context. If someone is saying “wow I hate all gays and hope they’re put in extermination camps” then sure I’d speak up and tell them they’re a piece of shit. If someone says “I think gays should have equal rights but personally I think it’s wrong” then I’d shrug it off. I think there’s a line between outright hatred and ignorance/cultural/religious-norms that people ignore too much. Qanon type people are too far gone, but the others I think could change, and immediately shutting them down as racists or homophobes doesn’t help sway them.
What’s the response if someone is making statements like “I think it’s important for everyone to get in politics. For instance, I have listened to Mr. Dobadian many times and think he’s an excellent candidate.” and the first search result for this fictitious person is a speech where he declares; “ALL PEOPLE WITH BROWN EYES NEED TO DROWN IN MUD WATER.”?
Shut down the latter person immediately as racist. But what about the first - the person advocating them? What’s the right way of disrupting their beliefs without “belittling” them?
“Hey, I listened to that Mr. Dobadian and he sounds crazy. I think you should be careful about listening to him.”
“I get that it sounds different for someone indoctrinated by media, but I do think you should give him a chance.”
“No, I mean, he literally said that schoolchildren needed to be blown up.”
“I don’t see value in disingenuously misrepresenting my candidate. I think you’re drawing your own extreme conclusions.”
“Okay, you know what, screw you, you’re just another racist.”
“Wow! Immediate shutdown much? Your kind are so intolerant!”
Or, you could ignore these “secondary echos” of the extremist crazies - which is what lead to people in extremist positions spreading their message and getting elected.
So, which is it? Do you interface with them, and make your beliefs known, or not? Keep in mind, you literally won’t have all the time in the world to dismantle the lack of logic behind every one of them.
I mean, this made up person definitely sounds difficult to deal with. But this is getting into qanon territory basically, and I don’t think the vast majority of conservatives are like that. Plus I believe you can have open discussions and say “I disagree with that entirely” without adding “and you’re a bigot” at the end. It’s also easier in real life to tell if someone is genuinely hateful or their heart is in the right place but they’re a bit of a moron.
My whole gripe with overly-progressives is that they’ll completely write someone off as evil for not being progressive enough. It seems you’re assuming I’d never speak up against genuine racism, when originally my point was "it’s annoying when people tell you saying ‘marijuana’ or ‘mailman’ is racist and transphobic.
Plus I believe you can have open discussions and say “I disagree with that entirely” without adding “and you’re a bigot” at the end.
Man, you’d think so. Wouldn’t ya? But I haven’t heard that type of discourse in a long time. I know people who accuse anyone who doesn’t agree with literally every point they make of being bigots. Just today I was talking with a friend who accused a person with a blended family of being a racist. I see the same thing every single day online. Go find some 10 year old Reddit posts about politics and read the comments, the tone and the communication is completely different than it is now. It’s getting pretty bad out there.
I’m kidding there, but maybe you see my point. Just like myself, you’ve set only a small set of options. Either people are evil, or they’re stupid, and no one likes being called either. It’s not plausible to completely avoid either label.
The point about marijuana is unfortunately lost on me. If it’s a reference to some extremist position, I’m afraid I don’t necessarily follow.
I think the amount of annoying anal liberals such as that is overblown. And whenever I do see that, I see other leftists calling their shit out.
What’s really “both sides” is the fact that Democrats don’t do enough when they have the chances too, because really the majority opinion of the Democrats is way farther right then people in the US like to admit.
Tbf my way of thinking is probably based off my environment. I live in a liberal area but work in a conservative work environment, so all the conservatives I know don’t have Trump flags, stickers, spout antivax shit, etc. but all the liberals I know feel more empowered.
But as far as the political parties themselves go, I agree. Neither side is doing anything to address the class divide, which would help nearly everyone.
Nothing bugs me more than democrats being called the “extreme left” or wtf ever. They’re center right, full stop.
Unpopular opinion, if dems ran an leftist they’d sweep it. They can’t though because it’d be detrimental to everything they actually care about. Bernie swept that primary year but we all knew they’d never run him.
The Dems have run relative leftists in the past: Bernie Sanders was on the primary ballot in 2020 … and lost.
If you want to blame anyone: look at our fellow “voters”. Asking my under-30 coworkers if they voted in the primary and/or the general election was depressing as fuck.
For me at least, it’s more of “conservatives are crazy, conspiracy-led, bigots but liberals are annoying.” and this of course only applies to the most outspoken of both sides.
I know plenty of people who vote republican, that are decent people (not antivax, not racist, not homophobic), but are either religious or gun nuts. Hell, I have a coworker that agrees with 95% of democratic policies but will never vote for them because they’ll “take his guns.” Do I think they’re dumb, sure. Do I think they’re evil, no?
Liberals I see like vegans. The core messaging is right, but the preachier you get, the more people are going to dislike you, even if they agree with you on principle. Even though I’ve voted democrat in every election, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes when someone told me I should stop using the word “marijuana” because it’s racist.
I don’t really want to hang out with qanon, racist types or people where I have to be careful of saying “mailman” instead of “mail carrier”. Obviously if I had to choose, it’d be the latter, but I don’t have to choose because 80% of people aren’t that politically motivated every second of their day.
Did he not hear trump say he likes to take the guns first and worry about the law later? Did he not hear trump say China was too soft in Tiananmen Square?
The Democrats are coming for the guns… but so is trump.
You’re giving these guys too much credit. They don’t follow the news or read anything, ever. This is the same coworker who, when a hasidic Jewish person walked into our shop, said “I thought Amish couldn’t work with electricity” and was 100% genuine.
Your absolutely right. Trump gets a pretty failing grade on 2A rights and from a general libertarian measure, and shouldn’t even be run on republican tickets. As someone who wants more Democrat aligned things like universal healthcare, UBI, police reform, and tax reform, I want those things from a libertarian framestate where those things are the most effective way for the federal government to provide for the common good with the least amount of bureaucracy and government intrusion into citizen’s lives. This means I hold all of my constitutional rights in high regard, the 2nd among them.
I hate having my options being a “choose which rights you least want to lose” adventure game. Since taking the guns is a Democrat plank compared to at least lip service in support at the Republican party level, you get shills like Trump getting the pro gun vote cause he was quiet about it for long enough. Living in the flyovers, I have been voting for my not-anto-gun Democrat at the state level, but I wish i had those options at the House/Senate and Presidental levels too because without RCV my third party votes are basically protest votes. Further off topic, I am getting feed up with more and more libertarian candidates not being libertarian but Christian nationalist lite. The cancer is spreading.
They’re all corporatists. They state a couple of libertarian ideals that are in no way reflected in their voting history, and then they go hard for the GOP agenda. I guess that’s a good strategy, since most libertarians in the United States seem to actually be Republicans. It is really frustrating being someone who doesn’t fully align with either party, and having no other options.
What alternative is there to getting preachier? I don’t get in people’s faces, but I understand why people do it. For years, they’ve lightly suggested perhaps making things not terrible, and it’s let the far right get away with heinous shit.
Depends on context. If someone is saying “wow I hate all gays and hope they’re put in extermination camps” then sure I’d speak up and tell them they’re a piece of shit. If someone says “I think gays should have equal rights but personally I think it’s wrong” then I’d shrug it off. I think there’s a line between outright hatred and ignorance/cultural/religious-norms that people ignore too much. Qanon type people are too far gone, but the others I think could change, and immediately shutting them down as racists or homophobes doesn’t help sway them.
What’s the response if someone is making statements like “I think it’s important for everyone to get in politics. For instance, I have listened to Mr. Dobadian many times and think he’s an excellent candidate.” and the first search result for this fictitious person is a speech where he declares; “ALL PEOPLE WITH BROWN EYES NEED TO DROWN IN MUD WATER.”?
Shut down the latter person immediately as racist. But what about the first - the person advocating them? What’s the right way of disrupting their beliefs without “belittling” them?
“Hey, I listened to that Mr. Dobadian and he sounds crazy. I think you should be careful about listening to him.”
“I get that it sounds different for someone indoctrinated by media, but I do think you should give him a chance.”
“No, I mean, he literally said that schoolchildren needed to be blown up.”
“I don’t see value in disingenuously misrepresenting my candidate. I think you’re drawing your own extreme conclusions.”
“Okay, you know what, screw you, you’re just another racist.”
“Wow! Immediate shutdown much? Your kind are so intolerant!”
Or, you could ignore these “secondary echos” of the extremist crazies - which is what lead to people in extremist positions spreading their message and getting elected.
So, which is it? Do you interface with them, and make your beliefs known, or not? Keep in mind, you literally won’t have all the time in the world to dismantle the lack of logic behind every one of them.
I mean, this made up person definitely sounds difficult to deal with. But this is getting into qanon territory basically, and I don’t think the vast majority of conservatives are like that. Plus I believe you can have open discussions and say “I disagree with that entirely” without adding “and you’re a bigot” at the end. It’s also easier in real life to tell if someone is genuinely hateful or their heart is in the right place but they’re a bit of a moron.
My whole gripe with overly-progressives is that they’ll completely write someone off as evil for not being progressive enough. It seems you’re assuming I’d never speak up against genuine racism, when originally my point was "it’s annoying when people tell you saying ‘marijuana’ or ‘mailman’ is racist and transphobic.
Man, you’d think so. Wouldn’t ya? But I haven’t heard that type of discourse in a long time. I know people who accuse anyone who doesn’t agree with literally every point they make of being bigots. Just today I was talking with a friend who accused a person with a blended family of being a racist. I see the same thing every single day online. Go find some 10 year old Reddit posts about politics and read the comments, the tone and the communication is completely different than it is now. It’s getting pretty bad out there.
Wow! Hateful, much?
I’m kidding there, but maybe you see my point. Just like myself, you’ve set only a small set of options. Either people are evil, or they’re stupid, and no one likes being called either. It’s not plausible to completely avoid either label.
The point about marijuana is unfortunately lost on me. If it’s a reference to some extremist position, I’m afraid I don’t necessarily follow.
I think the amount of annoying anal liberals such as that is overblown. And whenever I do see that, I see other leftists calling their shit out.
What’s really “both sides” is the fact that Democrats don’t do enough when they have the chances too, because really the majority opinion of the Democrats is way farther right then people in the US like to admit.
Tbf my way of thinking is probably based off my environment. I live in a liberal area but work in a conservative work environment, so all the conservatives I know don’t have Trump flags, stickers, spout antivax shit, etc. but all the liberals I know feel more empowered.
But as far as the political parties themselves go, I agree. Neither side is doing anything to address the class divide, which would help nearly everyone.
Nothing bugs me more than democrats being called the “extreme left” or wtf ever. They’re center right, full stop.
Unpopular opinion, if dems ran an leftist they’d sweep it. They can’t though because it’d be detrimental to everything they actually care about. Bernie swept that primary year but we all knew they’d never run him.
The Dems have run relative leftists in the past: Bernie Sanders was on the primary ballot in 2020 … and lost.
If you want to blame anyone: look at our fellow “voters”. Asking my under-30 coworkers if they voted in the primary and/or the general election was depressing as fuck.
“The Dems”, meaning the DNC, didn’t run Sanders, they did everything they could to push him out of the race. Sanders ran Sanders.